Winnipeg Fury Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Can Canada support a MLS franchise? By NEIL DAVIDSON (CP) - News that A-League franchises in Calgary and Edmonton have shut their doors seemingly does little to engender hope that Canada can support a Major League Soccer franchise. But Kevan Pipe, chief operating officer of the Canadian Soccer Association, believes it is simplistic to link the two. Apples and oranges, he says. Perhaps, cranberries and caviar may be a better analogy. MLS is a whole new snack bracket for a sport that has staggered at Canadian turnstiles in recent years. With the green light having been given to a 25,000-seat stadium at York University, Toronto will have the necessary home to catch Major League Soccer's eye. Now it just needs in excess of $10 million US. The MLS is currently at 10 teams, with new franchises on deck in Salt Lake City and Los Angeles, where the new team will share the Home Depot Center with the Galaxy. Both new franchises paid $10 million US to join the league. Expect the admission fee to go up next time around. This is for a city where the existing A-League team, the Lynx, has lost $5 million Cdn over its first eight seasons, according to indefatigable owner Nicole Hartrell. The good news is the bottom line is improving for the Lynx, who have been without a decent home since an aging Varsity Stadium was demolished. Hartrell estimates last season's losses at $300,000 Cdn last season - on a $900,000 Cdn operating budget. Hartrell is even expanding her soccer world. She has taken over the Toronto W-League women's franchise and expects to pour an additional $250,000 Cdn in that team next season. She understandably does not want to compete with an MLS franchise. "We don't believe that Canada's ready to support financially and otherwise an MLS franchise," Hartrell said Thursday. And she wonders why the Canadian Soccer Association is looking past her organization. So does the United Soccer League, the umbrella group that runs the A-League, W-League and others. "I guess I'm a little unclear why the franchise that has been working to keep professional soccer for the period of a decade would be looked at as insufficient as a tenant in that stadium," USL vice-president Tim Holt said Thursday from Tampa, Fla. "Maybe because of its past attendances? Well aren't they a direct function perhaps of not having an appropriate venue at this point? "I think the Lynx should be given every opportunity to be the professional soccer franchise in Toronto and that should be supported by the CSA." In terms of loyalty, he probably has a point. Still it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and the MLS trumps the A-League when it comes to soccer status in North America. Would you rather drive a Pinto or a Porsche? The MLS is on record as saying it would welcome two more teams in 2006 or 2007. At $10 million US a head, why not? Still the MLS is smart enough to know that expansion to the wrong places is akin to one step forward, two steps back. The league has already had to close franchises in Tampa and Miami. So for the time being, it is safe to guess the league is going to take the best-heeled bid it can get. Even if the gigantic MLS expansion fee includes upfront money for some league obligations for the first few years - so says Pipe, MLS won't say what the money covers - the CSA will need more than the Argos owners to pony up. The CSA is essentially trying to act as matchmaker, in linking the Argos ownership with others with the resources to get involved. There are people out there. Auto parts millionaire Frank Stronach of Aurora, Ont., has already dug into his wallet for soccer in his native Austria. In a perfect world, he could drop a few bucks in his backyard. But even with a stadium and a franchise, pro sports teams exist on TV revenue. And there is no proof that TV is ready to spend real money on soccer in Canada. Not to mention North America's poor track record of past pro leagues. Still Pipe is nothing but positive on MLS. "Pretty substantial progress," has been made on the search to expand an ownership group, he says. There have been "many" talks with MLS, which is "extremely positive." As for the A-League woes in Alberta, Pipe argues that the two teams were hamstrung by oversized football stadiums, with Calgary's MacMahon further plagued by outdated artificial turf. Losing records didn't help either. Both teams went 4-18-6 with the Calgary Mustangs averaging 1,258 fans per game and the Edmonton Aviators 1,478. Toronto drew 2,444 per game, compared to 4,833 for the Vancouver Whitecaps and 9,279 for the champion Montreal Impact. The league average was 3,879. A-League soccer may resurface in Calgary in 2006, according to Holt, if the right ownership group is found. Plus the A-League has yet to announce the makeup of the 2005 season, so the ink is not yet dry on the league makeup. Pipe argues the right soccer venue will draw fans in Toronto and points to the huge population base in and around the city. And he agrees that soccer snobbery - fans who will pack SkyDome to watch Liverpool or Celtic playing a meaningless exhibition game rather than take in a local pro team - could work in an MLS team's favour given that the league is North America's top flight and has star appeal with the likes of Landon Donovan and Freddy Adu. The Toronto Argonauts like the MLS idea because it represents another tenant for their new home. The Canadian Soccer Association loves it, because it would keep some Canadian players closer to home while playing soccer at a competitive level. More players at home means more time for Frank Yallop to work with his internationals. It also means less cost in assembling his squad. And while the CSA is not looking to become part of any potential ownership group - it does not have deep enough pockets - Pipe says it is open to just about anything else. "We've got an open agenda, an open book . . . we're not going to outright reject anything. Our top priority right now is being directly involved in the process of securing an MLS franchise for a least Toronto - and who knows what down the road." That positive approach and out-of-the-box thinking is commendable. And the CSA and Argos deserve credit for rescuing their stadium plan after the University of Toronto pulled out. But the road to an MLS franchise needs to be paved with more than good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Man, the CSA needed to put more ressources into their Nat teams, pushing them to actually qualify for tournaments more than 20% of the time and into continuing and existing domestic options. Since when is a NATIONAL association a cheerleader for a league, a foreign one at that, more than anything else??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Shouldn't this topic be in the Canadian leagues and clubs section rather than the national team section? If Toronto got MLS it would be a Canadian club not a National team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Freddy Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Man, the CSA needed to put more ressources into their Nat teams, pushing them to actually qualify for tournaments more than 20% of the time and into continuing and existing domestic options. Since when is a NATIONAL association a cheerleader for a league, a foreign one at that, more than anything else??? I agree completely. It's time for a massive change within the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimo Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury And he agrees that soccer snobbery - fans who will pack SkyDome to watch Liverpool or Celtic playing a meaningless exhibition game rather than take in a local pro team - could work in an MLS team's favour given that the league is North America's top flight and has star appeal with the likes of Landon Donovan and Freddy Adu. Kevin, Kevin...I agree people packing in SkyDome for a meaningless exhibition match (ex. Liverppol vs Cetlic) then not supporting your local club is simply stupid. But comparing those clubs to Landon Donovan and Freddy Adu! Give me a break! That is just as stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue and White Army Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead Shouldn't this topic be in the Canadian leagues and clubs section rather than the national team section? If Toronto got MLS it would be a Canadian club not a National team. Pedantic twat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 MLS in TO is a Pipe-dream and simply a bad diversion from the fact that Canadian soccer is in complete shambles. Two of our five professional teams just folded, our men could not even make the Hex and even our heavilly favoured women failed to qualify for the World Cup. Pipe should spend less time boosting an american league and trying to put the Lynx (who have developed an incredible amount of Canadian talent) out of business and actually try to assist in the growth of Canadian soccer. As a long time loyal supporter of Canadian soccer, my patience has worn thin with our lack of progress in CONCACAF. We have clearly fallen behind in the past ten years, and it's now time for a massive shake-up at the CSA (and I don't mean the coach!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 MLS in TO is a Pipe-dream and simply a bad diversion from the fact that Canadian soccer is in complete shambles. Two of our five professional teams just folded, our men could not even make the Hex and even our heavilly favoured women failed to qualify for the World Cup. Pipe should spend less time boosting an american league and trying to put the Lynx (who have developed an incredible amount of Canadian talent) out of business and actually try to assist in the growth of Canadian soccer. As a long time loyal supporter of Canadian soccer, my patience has worn thin with our lack of progress in CONCACAF. We have clearly fallen behind in the past ten years, and it's now time for a massive shake-up at the CSA (and I don't mean the coach!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury Two of our five professional teams just folded, our men could not even make the Hex and even our heavilly favoured women failed to qualify for the World Cup. You mean the women failed for the Olympics, right? The women placed fourth in the WC. But I understand and agree with your disgust with the MNT and the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army Pedantic twat! Heh. As a regular on the southside board you know thats not the case as there is hardly any strict rules regarding posting in the different sections over there. However if every single MLS in Canada thread is going to get posted I think it would be better to have them posted in the appropriate section. It's a Canadian club issue not national team issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 quote:Originally posted by redhat You mean the women failed for the Olympics, right? The women placed fourth in the WC. But I understand and agree with your disgust with the MNT and the CSA. Yes, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by massimo Kevin, Kevin...I agree people packing in SkyDome for a meaningless exhibition match (ex. Liverppol vs Cetlic) then not supporting your local club is simply stupid. But comparing those clubs to Landon Donovan and Freddy Adu! Give me a break! That is just as stupid! Sorry but i was at Both the Liverpool/Porto & Celtic/Roma matches and it beats anything this countries soccer association can throw together, the only problem i have is that the Champions World group had to pay a "donation" to the CSA to put these games on, this is criminal. The CSA go out of their way not to play games in Ontario, and when real football teams come over to their loyal and large following the CSA has to make a buck out of it. And now that this subject has been brought up one of these matches had a female referee from the CSA, this should not have been allowed, this is a mens game, no women officals needed. With luck the Champions World group will be back at Skydome next year,with the CSA staying out of the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by soccerbeast Sorry but i was at Both the Liverpool/Porto & Celtic/Roma matches and it beats anything this countries soccer association can throw together, the only problem i have is that the Champions World group had to pay a "donation" to the CSA to put these games on, this is criminal. The CSA go out of their way not to play games in Ontario, and when real football teams come over to their loyal and large following the CSA has to make a buck out of it. And now that this subject has been brought up one of these matches had a female referee from the CSA, this should not have been allowed, this is a mens game, no women officals needed. With luck the Champions World group will be back at Skydome next year,with the CSA staying out of the picture. Excuse me, but what exactly does a female referee have to do with anything in this thread? I understand your backwards, chauvanistic beliefs that the women's program should be scrapped from the CSA (you probably think women should only be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen) but you need not share them with the rest of us. On topic, anyone who plays a professional match in Canada has to give a cut to the CSA. This is standard practice around the world, so what makes you think that it would be better off if the CSA just looked the other way while these matches are taking place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Still doesn't make it right. The CSA did nothing and still managed to stake their cut from an entrepreneur under the pretence that " Its a standard practice around the world". Well suppose the entrepreneur loses his shirt on the venture, would the CSA come to his rescue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury Pipe should spend less time boosting an american league and trying to put the Lynx (who have developed an incredible amount of Canadian talent) out of business and actually try to assist in the growth of Canadian soccer. Funny how the Lynx have don't more in their 8 years than CSA has doen in decades. One could only imagine the talent that could be produced if we had 6 teams in the A-League or even a 8 team national league for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Excuse me, but what exactly does a female referee have to do with anything in this thread? I understand your backwards, chauvanistic beliefs that the women's program should be scrapped from the CSA (you probably think women should only be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen) but you need not share them with the rest of us. On topic, anyone who plays a professional match in Canada has to give a cut to the CSA. This is standard practice around the world, so what makes you think that it would be better off if the CSA just looked the other way while these matches are taking place? The CSA was just being greedy, the extra cost for their cut was paid by us supporters who went to those games, we wanted to see our clubs benefit not the CSA. While the grass was laid the CSA could have got the national team to play a game prior to one of the others being played, giving the national team much needed coverage in the Ontario area.The first leg vs Belize would have been great at the dome. And getting of topic just for a moment, it's not a crime to be chauvanistic in this society, and im proud to be,Al Bundy is my hero. So take a chill pill and lighten up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Excuse me, but what exactly does a female referee have to do with anything in this thread? I understand your backwards, chauvanistic beliefs that the women's program should be scrapped from the CSA (you probably think women should only be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen) but you need not share them with the rest of us. On topic, anyone who plays a professional match in Canada has to give a cut to the CSA. This is standard practice around the world, so what makes you think that it would be better off if the CSA just looked the other way while these matches are taking place? The CSA was just being greedy, the extra cost for their cut was paid by us supporters who went to those games, we wanted to see our clubs benefit not the CSA. While the grass was laid the CSA could have got the national team to play a game prior to one of the others being played, giving the national team much needed coverage in the Ontario area.The first leg vs Belize would have been great at the dome. And getting of topic just for a moment, it's not a crime to be chauvanistic in this society, and im proud to be,Al Bundy is my hero. So take a chill pill and lighten up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:And getting of topic just for a moment, it's not a crime to be chauvanistic in this society, and im proud to be No, it isn't. You're right for once. But it does show everyone what a complete dimwit you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Oh,no thats abuse you should be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Funny how the Lynx have don't more in their 8 years than CSA has doen in decades. One could only imagine the talent that could be produced if we had 6 teams in the A-League or even a 8 team national league for starters. The only thing the Lynx havn't done is put a winning product on the field, or find a better park to play there home games. This new stadium won't be that cause im sure a MLS is on thier way there. The Lynx have had there day, they gave it their best, not let the MLS have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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