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Kevan Pipe and MLS


Luis_Rancagua

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if everyone's dream is to have a succesful all canadian league, then i would suggest that an mls team in toronto is a first step towards that. having 5 or 6 or 10 a-league teams in this country does little to raise the profile of the game in canada. it is just not in the conciousness of the general public. 99.9% of the country doesnt even know what the a-league is. if we can get a team in a league with a higher profile, it can do nothing but help raise the level of awareness for soccer in this country. this is the biggest problem the game faces here. an mls team will have highlights shown on national sports broadcasts. it will be shown on tv much more than a-league, across the entire country. tsn would have soccer highlights...how can this be a bad thing?

suggesting that proving your success with good a-league teams before you can move to the next level is ridiculous. people want to cheer for the best. here in winnipeg the ahl hockey team cant draw flies to the arena, but if we got an nhl team it would be the biggest game in town. the mls would be the similar. nobody cares about watching second tier soccer except the die hards. a first tier team would get casual fans and people who have never watched soccer before to come out and support it, just because it is in the media and is percieved as higher quality. this improved exposure for soccer can only be good for the game in general and the awareness of the national team.

if mls can indeed raise the profile of soccer in canada, it might improve the success level for the a-league teams or possibly even spawn the creation of a domestic league. this can only happen if the attitude changes in canada. soccer must make the shift from being a participation sport to being a spectator sport. the only way to achieve this is with exposure on a bigger stage. there will be a trickle down effect of general awareness to the smaller leagues.

the popularity and exposure of basketball has increased dramatically in canada since the raptors came into being. i think it could be argued that the level of play in university and in the county as a whole has improved because of this awareness. a few continetal league teams could never have done that. i would think that if this soccer team was filled with canadian players, it would have a national following. i would certainly watch it regularily...but i could not care less about watching calgary's a-league team.

i agree that one mls team will not be the solution to our problem, but i fail to see the logic in it being better than not having a team at all. especially if there are a majority of canadians on the team. maybe radz will finish his career here...he would be 35 when this team starts up and he has said he wants to come back and help the country's soccer programme.

a successful domestic league is of course the best solution, but with soccer's profile in canada, we have to be realistic and take the best options that are available.

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As I have posted here on other threads before, I agree with a lot of the folks who say that SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING. I understand the desire to have your own leagues. I respect that. All I'm saying is that if MLS will let you guys in, can that really be such a bad thing. It doesn't mean that you are the "51st state", that you are still in "living in our shadow", "riding on our coat tails" or any of that other nonsense. We share the NHL (ok bad example:( Screw the lockout and the player's refusal to accept a salary cap--Sorry--I digress--enjoy skating in Europe--for less cash--oops. I digress again). In my opinion, the Raptors have been good for the NBA and good for TO and Canadian basketball.

The Canadian only league thing has not worked too well to date. Maybe you guys could do worse than an MLS franchise...

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quote:Originally posted by argh1

I think the models to be looked at would be more Wales home league vs English home league or Irish home leagues vs English home leagues .

Do we really want to be like Wales with the "major league " teams playing in the English pyramid but part-timers playing in the domestic leagues. It may not be a fair comparison because of citizenship.

Why would anyone want Canada to run a crap league based of the League of Wales. If Cardiff, Wrexam and Swansea played in the "LOW" instead of the English League, it would be a joke for all involved. The welsh national team benefits from it's players playing the english leagues, which are a million times better than the "LOW"

Imagine the Impact having to play in the CPSL. My god.

Considering Celtic and Rangers would give up their left nuts to play in the EPL or the English 1 or 2nd divisions. And the best Irish players leave to play in England and not for crap clubs in Dublin.

I can understand why the MLS is being considered by the CSA. We will never get better by lowering the standard that our best play at. And an all Canadian Pro League would be a glamourious version of the CPSL.

The MLS is a good league. A Canadian Pro league would be worse than the A-league- so why even go there.

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Yankiboy and Trueviking,,,, you guys are bang on, I don't know if you read my post yesterday but that is exactly the points I tried to make before I got cut down as a typical Canadian fan who only follows major league sports (so all the soccer troubles are the fans fault now apparently) I live in Kelowna, 4 hours from Vancouver, about 99 % of the people here have no interest in following soccer and have never heard of the Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto Lynx, or Montreal Impact cause there is no soccer coverage at all in the media and just Premier league games on Sportsnet. At the very least , an MLS team would get media attention and have games shown on tv and highlights on sports reports raising the profile of the game somewhat, its certainly better then not having a team and getting no coverage. And as Yankiboy and I have previously stated, what have we got to lose here people ????? The worst case scenario is the team folds after a season or two, the private investors lose some money (which doesn't affect us), and then we are back to square one....which is the exact place we are in right now.....square one.... Best case scenario, you get the media behind soccer now and watch the best soccer players in north america on tv raising the profile of the game in Canada, as well as having a bunch of Canadian players playing top level competition and forming somewhat of a Canadian "B" team You gotta take baby steps too, start with the one franchise in Toronto, and if things workout then maybe down the road Montreal or Vancouver could get a team, but one step at a time here. I have yet to see one good argument as to how bringing an MLS team into Canada would hurt the game here.....

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quote:Originally posted by kelownaguy

At the very least , an MLS team would get media attention and have games shown on tv and highlights on sports reports raising the profile of the game somewhat.

I'm afraid you're going to be very disappointed in that regard. MLS gets very little coverage in the U.S. I doubt that it would get much more coverage in Canada. There would be some attention initially when the team is starting up and there might be some hype if the team was to win a championship, but otherwise I'd be surprised if you see anything other than on Fox Sports World or Soccercentral. I could be wrong. But from what I've seen during my frequent visits to the States, the MLS teams get no more media coverage in their local markets than what the Whitecaps get in Vancouver. In fact, when I asked some of my colleagues who live in San Jose about getting tickets to see the Earthquakes, many were surprised to learn that the city had a professional soccer team.

Yes, the MLS does have a higher level of play than the A-League. But if the U.S. Open Cup results are any indication, the gap is not as wide as some of you make it out to be. The top A-League teams have shown that they can compete with any of the mid-table MLS teams. The quality of play alone is not enough reason to back the MLS.

The real benefits of having an MLS team are:

a) the perception that the league is superior to what we have now. I would argue that this only really matters in the Toronto market, and even there, anyone who thinks an MLS team is going to compete for front page coverage in the Sun sports section alongside the Leafs, Blue Jays and Raptors is deluding themselves. Still, Toronto is a big market and most of our national media is based there.

B) salary -- MLS players can make a decent living playing the sport, A-League players can't.

The latter is a very powerful argument. I have long argued that one of the greatest problems we have in promoting soccer in Canada is the fact that our best players have to go overseas to make a decent living. As a result, those players have very little presence in the community and fans seldom get a chance to see them or even hear about them. This is why the women's team has become more popular recently than the men's team.

But even MLS salaries are not going to prevent our best players like Hume and DeGuzman from going to Europe to pursue their careers (nor should it). We're only talking about three or four national team calibre players and seven or eight B-squad players. Still, a job is a job and we have too many skilled soccer players in this country who don't have full-time jobs and whose potential is wasted because of it.

I am not opposed to the MLS per se. I just question the CSA's wisdom in overhyping the value of having a single team in a foreign-based professional league while apparently thumbing their noses at the many years of work that has already been done by the Whitecaps, Impact and Lynx organizations. The CSA has a responsibility to promote soccer throughout Canada at all levels. They should not be promoting ANY single professional team unless it is part of an overall strategy for improving the game at all levels across the country. I have not yet heard Mr. Pipe articulate such a strategy. I want to hear him address the issue of how an MLS team in Toronto is going to affect the existing A-League teams and the Lynx in particular. How does he envision the two leagues working together? If the CSA is going out of its way to promote an MLS franchise in Toronto, would it also be willing to make an equal investment in time and money to help Vancouver and Montreal get teams?

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quote:Originally posted by kelownaguy

At the very least , an MLS team would get media attention and have games shown on tv and highlights on sports reports raising the profile of the game somewhat.

I'm afraid you're going to be very disappointed in that regard. MLS gets very little coverage in the U.S. I doubt that it would get much more coverage in Canada. There would be some attention initially when the team is starting up and there might be some hype if the team was to win a championship, but otherwise I'd be surprised if you see anything other than on Fox Sports World or Soccercentral. I could be wrong. But from what I've seen during my frequent visits to the States, the MLS teams get no more media coverage in their local markets than what the Whitecaps get in Vancouver. In fact, when I asked some of my colleagues who live in San Jose about getting tickets to see the Earthquakes, many were surprised to learn that the city had a professional soccer team.

Yes, the MLS does have a higher level of play than the A-League. But if the U.S. Open Cup results are any indication, the gap is not as wide as some of you make it out to be. The top A-League teams have shown that they can compete with any of the mid-table MLS teams. The quality of play alone is not enough reason to back the MLS.

The real benefits of having an MLS team are:

a) the perception that the league is superior to what we have now. I would argue that this only really matters in the Toronto market, and even there, anyone who thinks an MLS team is going to compete for front page coverage in the Sun sports section alongside the Leafs, Blue Jays and Raptors is deluding themselves. Still, Toronto is a big market and most of our national media is based there.

B) salary -- MLS players can make a decent living playing the sport, A-League players can't.

The latter is a very powerful argument. I have long argued that one of the greatest problems we have in promoting soccer in Canada is the fact that our best players have to go overseas to make a decent living. As a result, those players have very little presence in the community and fans seldom get a chance to see them or even hear about them. This is why the women's team has become more popular recently than the men's team.

But even MLS salaries are not going to prevent our best players like Hume and DeGuzman from going to Europe to pursue their careers (nor should it). We're only talking about three or four national team calibre players and seven or eight B-squad players. Still, a job is a job and we have too many skilled soccer players in this country who don't have full-time jobs and whose potential is wasted because of it.

I am not opposed to the MLS per se. I just question the CSA's wisdom in overhyping the value of having a single team in a foreign-based professional league while apparently thumbing their noses at the many years of work that has already been done by the Whitecaps, Impact and Lynx organizations. The CSA has a responsibility to promote soccer throughout Canada at all levels. They should not be promoting ANY single professional team unless it is part of an overall strategy for improving the game at all levels across the country. I have not yet heard Mr. Pipe articulate such a strategy. I want to hear him address the issue of how an MLS team in Toronto is going to affect the existing A-League teams and the Lynx in particular. How does he envision the two leagues working together? If the CSA is going out of its way to promote an MLS franchise in Toronto, would it also be willing to make an equal investment in time and money to help Vancouver and Montreal get teams?

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Re: MLS coverage in the Canadian media, when the Blizzard were in town in the NASL days, even though it didn't get the greatest coverage in the media, yet everybody knew the team existed. I would expect media coverage to be greater in this day & age with there being less of an anti-soccer bias in the media (though with the likes of Bob McCown and Dave Perkins, there is still a bit of that around (apparently Bob McCown got his ass kicked recently on the radio by Joe Volpe about the new stadium & soccer, I wish I could have heard that)).

I'll take a return to NASL-sized soccer crowds and coverage in Toronto any day of the week over what we have now. It doesn't need to be the top headline on the sports page & continual front page coverage for it to be a massive improvement on what we have now for the Lynx (which is just about nothing). How much of this will translate into coverage across the country? It's difficult to say, but I have often heard people complaining about how much coverage Toronto sports teams get across the country.

At the same time, I have a feeling that a team in Toronto would have little impact on the Impact, or put a stop to the sort of coverage and support Vancouver is currently getting out west. As for the Albertan A-league teams, it's difficult to know if they will be around in any event, whether we have 3 teams in the A-league or the MLS.

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I think that an MLS team in TO certainly wouldn’t be a bad thing. It would be nice to see a more competitive level of the game being played on Canadian soil. However that being said it don’t see it directly turning around our national teams plight. I can’t see an MLS team making Canada a powerhouse in soccer any more than a the Raptors and Jays make Canada a powerhouse in basket ball and baseball. (Although I guess they are better in these games in an international respect than they are in soccer.) In the long run what it may do is generate more exposure and public interest in the game and this is the most important thing that may be gained. The main thing our national team needs to succeed is a country that knows they even exist. If MLS works in Toronto and there is a legit fan base then it may spread to other cites. This is the only way we will produce and support players who perform at a high enough level to compete with teams like the US and Mexico.

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quote:Originally posted by denis

I can’t see an MLS team making Canada a powerhouse in soccer any more than a the Raptors and Jays make Canada a powerhouse in basket ball and baseball.

Agreed, it won't make Canada a powerhouse in soccer in the short term. But I think that Yallop said it best in today's soccercentral when he said that it will expose our players to the conditions that best approximate the Concacaf play. That applies to climate, players, and style. It would also help when it comes to player evaluation.

Pulling players from half a dozen different Euro leagues doesn't accomplish this. There is no way of knowing how playing in Scandinavia, the british iles, switzerland and Russia prepares you to face the likes of Guevarra, Ruiz and Donovan. Its hard to get a read on the level of readiness. Plus you have travel fatigue and aclimatization issues. At the very least, MLS puts you on a level platform with our opponents in that you lessen the problem that we constantly face whereby Canadians are in off season form when our opponents are in mid season form. That can work the other way but, WCQ is most often played in the summer months.

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quote:I can’t see an MLS team making Canada a powerhouse in soccer any more than a the Raptors and Jays make Canada a powerhouse in basket ball and baseball.

One crucial difference, however, is that an MLS team will probably have some sort of Canadian player quota. The Raptors and Jays are teams primarily composed of Americans who just happen to play in Canada. On the other hand the lack of quotas in baseball and basketball has helped Canadians play in those sports at the highest level for whichever team wants them. Since MLS has quotas, the only way for us to have a significant number of Canadians playing in this league is to have a team ourselves. There is also the issue of whether the MLS will change its rules to have a Canadian quota equivalent to the American one for one team or have Canadians and Americans ruled as non-imports throughout the league.

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If Yallop so wants to pay against CONCACAF teams, he should be having a Canada B team playing during the winter instead of sending players into an MLS team that won't work.

Seems that those who think not having MLS is inferior are obviously not knowing much of the minor leagues.

Any talk of the Raptors, Jays, or Expos having a positive effect on sports in Canada is just plain stupid.

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Calling it stupid is a pretty strong conclusion, but as usual you haven't stated anything to support your conclusion.

It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. The argument about giving kids a visible, tangible dream holds true with me.

In baseball, after the formation of the Expos, there was a proliferation of minor league teams in western Canada. I don't know if Vancouver had a Triple A team prior to 1969, but they certainly had one (the Mounties) in 1969. After a bit of a lag, they got a team again. In Alberta, Lethbridge, Calgary, and Medicine Hat all got teams in the Pioneer League (rookie) in the 1970s. Later Calgary and Edmonton had teams in Triple A. Would this have happened without the Expos and Blue Jays? Maybe, but the presence of Major League Baseball teams in Canada made the presence of minor league baseball teams in Canada less odd. In the case of Medicine Hat, the team was created to be an affiliate of Toronto.

The prescence of minor pro teams gives kids a chance to see young players living out a dream. In Medicine Hat, we saw players like Lloyd Moseby, Jimmy Key, John Cerutti, Pat Borders as young men. You see them as real people, not two inch high abstractions on a television set. When you have pro athletes in your community, you realize that playing pro sports isn't just a dream. Young players seek out ways to improve their technique and stay with the game longer. As an example, there are baseball institutes in Western Canada now that produce very skilled baseball players. We are seeing a wave of Canadian talent hit the major leagues right now. It's only speculation to think of what the Canadian baseball landscape would look like right now if there wasn't any Expos or Jays, but my strong suspicion is that Canada wouldn't be producing as many quality baseball players and there wouldn't be the same infrastructure in place. Baseball wasn't an Olympic sport back then (pre 1969), but there's no way on earth that Canada could have possibly qualified from North and Central America back then. Today, Cuba and the US are still the powerhouses, but now Canada is in the mix with everybody else in the region.

What's one of the big complaints about soccer...with the hundreds of thousands of kids playing, the vast majority either don't take it seriously or if they're good athletes other North American sports offer more possibilities and they drop out of soccer.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the only time we qualified for the World Cup came through a team made largely from NASL trained players. I realize that there wasn't just one Canadian team in the NASL, but Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, and Calgary didn't enter the league in one fell swoop (and some of them didn't last very long). It happened gradually.

Let's give MLS a shot, soccer fans in Toronto know that the A-League isn't the answer.

Blair

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Any talk of the Raptors, Jays, or Expos having a positive effect on sports in Canada is just plain stupid.

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Rookie ball was introduced to Medicine Hat by the Oakland A's, not the Blue Jays. The A's wee the ones that played a role in bringing AAA ball to Vancouver.

The Jays and the Expos didn't bring the PCL to Calgary or Edmonton. The only thing the Jays did for baseball was bring a neglected team to St. Catherines.

That baseball school in the West went by the wayside a long time ago.

Baseball had a solid footing in Canada long before the Jays. Don't go neglecting history for that.

As for the international game, go look at the history again.

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Bill Yuill in Medicine Hat picked up a franchise with the A's as an affiliate in 1976 or 77, the following year they became the Jays affilliate. My recollection is that this was the intention from the start.

My point about pro ball in western Canada is that it followed the establishment of Major League Baseball, it didn't pre-date the Expos. Success at the Major League level was evidence that Canada would support baseball at the minor league level.

As for institutes...here's some evidence.

http://www.prairiebaseball.com/

http://www.diamondforexcellence.com/

Yes, baseball was played in Canada before the Expos and the Jays. However, that's not what you originally stated, and that's not what I'm arguing. You stated "Any talk of the Raptors, Jays, or Expos having a positive effect on sports in Canada is just plain stupid."...and that's ridiculous.

As for go look at the history of the international game again, why don't you tell me what it was. Are you saying that we were good before the introduction of MLB to Canada or that we still aren't any good now?

I know what your history is and that is making statements that are inaccurate and/or not supported by facts at all.

Blair

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Rookie ball was introduced to Medicine Hat by the Oakland A's, not the Blue Jays. The A's wee the ones that played a role in bringing AAA ball to Vancouver.

The Jays and the Expos didn't bring the PCL to Calgary or Edmonton. The only thing the Jays did for baseball was bring a neglected team to St. Catherines.

That baseball school in the West went by the wayside a long time ago.

Baseball had a solid footing in Canada long before the Jays. Don't go neglecting history for that.

As for the international game, go look at the history again.

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quote:Originally posted by Grasshopper

Bill Yuill in Medicine Hat picked up a franchise with the A's as an affiliate in 1976 or 77, the following year they became the Jays affilliate. My recollection is that this was the intention from the start.

My point about pro ball in western Canada is that it followed the establishment of Major League Baseball, it didn't pre-date the Expos. Success at the Major League level was evidence that Canada would support baseball at the minor league level.

As for institutes...here's some evidence.

http://www.prairiebaseball.com/

http://www.diamondforexcellence.com/

Yes, baseball was played in Canada before the Expos and the Jays. However, that's not what you originally stated, and that's not what I'm arguing. You stated "Any talk of the Raptors, Jays, or Expos having a positive effect on sports in Canada is just plain stupid."...and that's ridiculous.

As for go look at the history of the international game again, why don't you tell me what it was. Are you saying that we were good before the introduction of MLB to Canada or that we still aren't any good now?

I know what your history is and that is making statements that are inaccurate and/or not supported by facts at all.

RANT WARNING

Well I'd like to know how you know what the intentions were of an A's affiliate changing to a Jays in 1978?

The EXPOS and the JAYS had a novelty affect on the nation and when they were winning had a whole lot of bandwagoners .

But I dare say currently outside of the immediate market area the support for the Jays is minimal nationally .

I don't follow the Raptors as I don't like the brand of b-ball played vs international or NCAA and I can't buy into the "street" culture marketing of the NBA so I just don't know how the Raptors affect Canadian basketball.

But in my humble opinion unless the Jays are winning, outside their immediate market hardly any-one cares .The same will happen with a GTA MLS team after the novelty wears off and unless they win constantly .

But in the mean time while the hype is hot one MLS team will have a negative affect on pro club soccer across the nation as a whole and set back pro club soccer in the wilderness outside of the GTA.

No offence but maybe we listen to much to one metro area Chamber of Commerce selling itself to itself . Also the CSA's stand on one "national" stadium and goin' for one MLS team in one city is a slap in the face to the many millions of us who don't live in the GTA .

I really don't mean to affront Torontonians but hey.....what about the rest of the country CSA we need your support too.

My distaste for the "national" stadium idea is what brought me to this board and now my level of distaste for the CSA on this issue and the MLS in Canada wants me to say to the CSA get your support from the GTA the rest of the country want a Soccer Ass'n of Canada that includes all of Canada please.

END OF RANT

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quote:Originally posted by argh1

Why is it a slap in face to those outside the GTA for the CSA to build a national stadium in Toronto and seek an MLS club for TO? What is there thats prevents a soccer stadium from being built in, Say, Moncton? Or what is there to prevent Moncton (or any other Cnd city) from pursuing an MLS franchise? Answer: Nothing. If a private investor came forward in any place in Canada and built ( even the the assistance of public funds) a 20K seat stadium for soccer and sought an MLS franchise, do you honestly think that the CSA would not welcome and support these initiatives? But in truth, the objections here are over the fact that its in Toronto; isn't it?

If it were anywhere else, no one would object. I also wonder about the point: " I really don't mean to affront Torontonians but hey.....what about the rest of the country CSA we need your support too". Well, I would respond to that in this manner: What has the CSA done for Toronto that it hasn't done in the rest of the country? I retort that the CSA has done nothing for Toronto to when you consider that they ( the CSA) hardly ever sets foot in the GTA when it comes to holding events. When have you last seen the GTA ever host any of a multitude of national championship? How did the GTA and southern Ontario ever get any favours from the CSA as far as hosting WCQ games this year? Or what about any of the other events ( eg.: U20, WWC, U17, Olympic qualifying). Moncton got some Olympic qualifying games but what has TO gotton recently? Yet the majority of the players in national team pool come from the area. You could make a very strong argument that if you consider where the talent comes from and participation levels, teh CSA has done has done far less for the GTA compared to other areas in Canada.

Its the MLS is who decides who gets a franchise; not the CSA. If the MLS decided that it made the most sence to award a franchise to Moncton, would the CSA object or stand in the way? or, would anyone say that that is bad for soccer to have an MLS team in Moncton? Of course they wouldn't and I am sure they would give them the full backing that TO is getting. Do you really think the CSA, with its strong western-influenced membership, is in favouring TO for partisanship or political reasons? Or is about growing soccer and improving our international results.

The CSA backing of TO for the MLS is nothing more than advertising for TO. As it turns out, it chose TO instaed of any other place because even they understand TO might have the best chance due to economic and demographic factors. IMHO, Montreal and Vancouver would also be good choices. But each has is drawbacks in the big picture. Vancouver might be geographical and time zone related. The problem with Montreal as we learned from the Expos ( after the arrival of the Blue Jays)is that many canadians are reluctant for political reason to cozy up to Montreal as a team. I am definitely not a fan of the Blue Jays, But I recall that their support in the early nineties extended well beyond the Southern Ontario region. Just as I recall an article in the globe in Mail at the time alluding to the fact that, due to polical reasons, the Expos were abandoned as a national draw in so far as audience. I was disapointed as an Expos fan to hear that but those are the realities.

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We are getting off topic. Doyle stated without any support that Major League teams in Canada have had no positive affect on sports in Canada, which is both bold and absolutely incorrect. I stated a few things that I thought came around positively around where I lived due to the presence of MLB in Canada.

As for your rant...I lived in Medicine Hat at the time, and it's what I recollect. The Medicine Hat ownership group's affiliation with Oakland lasted all of one year, their affiliation with Toronto lasted 25 years. The history of the Pioneer League is generally one of longer affiliations.

There's non doubt that everyone likes a winner and that the Jays and Expos were more popular across the country when they were winning, but they were also more popular in Toronto and Montreal when they were winning. I would suspect that the drop-off of support across the country wouldn't be any different than the drop off in support within the GTA or Metro Montreal areas. And I know that the Jays were VERY popular in Edmonton in 1992 and 1993 (not hockey popular, but popular enough to fill all the sports bars in town in the playoffs with enthusiastic fans).

As for where the MLS franchise and national stadium are going to be placed, you're being awfully regional. A decent sized stadium where the national team can play is needed and the York University plan makes sense. But it isn't the CSA that's the spearhead on the stadium; it's the Argos and the University. The CSA needs committed partners before they can accomplish anything on the stadium front. Maybe you think that the CSA should wait until there's enough money in their coffers to build three or four of their own stadiums across the country? Personally, I wouldn't be alive by the time that happened. Or maybe the CSA should ignore what's going on in Toronto and wait for UBC and the Lions to build a 25,000 seat stadium in Vancouver?

Also the CSA won't be running the MLS club if it comes this way, it will be an owner and the owner will have the say of where the club goes.

BTW, it's nice to know that pro soccer in Canada isn't in the wilderness now. How's pro soccer going in Moncton pre-MLS? Do you, as a Monctoner feel slapped in the face now without any pro soccer? Are you expecting a NB franchise in some Canadian league? Or are you just showing sympathy to existing pro soccer cities?

(Note: I'm just reading Free Kick's response and we may be covering the same ground, but I'm posting mine anyways.)

Blair

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Well I'd like to know how you know what the intentions were of an A's affiliate changing to a Jays in 1978?

The EXPOS and the JAYS had a novelty affect on the nation and when they were winning had a whole lot of bandwagoners .

But I dare say currently outside of the immediate market area the support for the Jays is minimal nationally .

I don't follow the Raptors as I don't like the brand of b-ball played vs international or NCAA and I can't buy into the "street" culture marketing of the NBA so I just don't know how the Raptors affect Canadian basketball.

But in my humble opinion unless the Jays are winning, outside their immediate market hardly any-one cares .The same will happen with a GTA MLS team after the novelty wears off and unless they win constantly .

But in the mean time while the hype is hot one MLS team will have a negative affect on pro club soccer across the nation as a whole and set back pro club soccer in the wilderness outside of the GTA.

No offence but maybe we listen to much to one metro area Chamber of Commerce selling itself to itself . Also the CSA's stand on one "national" stadium and goin' for one MLS team in one city is a slap in the face to the many millions of us who don't live in the GTA .

I really don't mean to affront Torontonians but hey.....what about the rest of the country CSA we need your support too.

My distaste for the "national" stadium idea is what brought me to this board and now my level of distaste for the CSA on this issue and the MLS in Canada wants me to say to the CSA get your support from the GTA the rest of the country want a Soccer Ass'n of Canada that includes all of Canada please.

END OF RANT

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The one thing I'm waiting for in this otherwise interesting debate is for someone to clearly explain how and why an MLS franchise in Toronto would have a negative impact on the whole of Canadian soccer. Those firmly against the idea must have some real or anecdotal evidence to back this claim up.

So share with the rest of us.

For the record, I'm for the idea at this point but I'm open to other information and experiences that people may share on why this might prove to be a bad move for Canadian soccer.

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I think the main point of opposition would be that one or several MLS franchises would make a Canadian league along the lines of the CFL less likely. The problem I have with that argument is how likely is a Canadian league at this point anyway and in the unlikely event of a Canadian league being formed in the next 5 years, what would be the level of play? A Canadian league in my opinion would be at best A-League level and quite possibly much lower. I greatly prefer the rules and culture of the CFL to the NFL but there is no doubt that the skill level of the players is well below that of the NFL. The best Canadian players play in the NFL but the CFL does provide a valuable option for skilled football players to play professionally and is also a stepping stone to the NFL. There are certainly very valid arguments that having the CFL is better for Canadian player development than having 3 NFL teams (not to mention for Canadian cultural reasons). This argument would, however, be significantly weakened if the NFL introduced foreign player quotas like the MLS and many other soccer leagues. My biggest problem with the Canadian league model is that even if the financial interests to establish the league are there (I don't think they are at the present) we are still probably 15 to 20 years away from having a soccer league whose playing level would be equivalent to the CFL playing level. This could be sped up by bringing in large numbers of foreign players but that would defeat the purpose and be very expensive.

My solution would be to start with a Toronto MLS team and try to increase this to as many (3-4) MLS teams as soon as financially possible. This would allow our players access to a high level league in the near future. Smaller markets would stay in the A-league and the CSA should try to create/strengthen some regional leagues like the CPSL. Thus, a league hierarchy could be created and could be brought together in a national manner through an open cup competition whose winner would play in the CONCACAF club championship. A great deal can be accomplished through having strong semi-pro regional leagues. There are many countries whose populations are about equal to that of either Toronto or Montreal who have pretty decent leagues. If players have an opportunity to play in a competitive environment with the possibility to progress to a middle level (A-league) or top level (MLS) league without worrying about foreigner quotas or going overseas at 15 this will greatly benefit Canadian soccer. It might not be the optimal solution but this is the real world and the next La Liga is not going to be playing in Canada anytime soon. Nor would we be locked into this situation, if 15 years from now strong clubs have been established in 10 Canadian markets they could break away from the US leagues if they so desired and this made financial sense.

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I guess as long as you keep things vague and don't back up what you're saying with any specifics it's hard to debate you on this. It's a little bit frustrating, but that's your history so it's not a surprise.

I'll reiterate what I'm arguing. Specifying some above examples in my previous posts, I think that current MLB and NBA (less so, but it's still early) teams in Canada do have a positive impact on sport in the country and believe that an MLS franchise or franchises would as well.

Maybe you'd like to cite how the Blue Jays/Expos haven't made a single iota of difference to baseball in Canada. Quite frankly you can't, because it's an extreme point of view. I realize that some people don't support the MLS idea, but I would think that very few of them would contend that MLS wouldn't benefit soccer in Canada in any way, shape, or form.

Blair

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Keep trying Grasshopper.

Reality will come to you yet.

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Ya know , I (not that my opinion counts for much) could probably accept an MLS team more readily if private interests were hawking it . Then fine it's your money go for it .

Also I am not against a new stadium in the GTA . What I am against is the CSA being the pitch man . Those opposed to my opinion are also right that I have no figures to back up my claims it is really just an emotional response . But the CSA has no place in backing a stadium or one team.

What do they want the ........ahhhh..... I forget what NASL called it......"TEAM CANADA" maybe ?

EDIT :

Grasshopper I just read your post sorry for the late edit.

Now I am not expecting pro soccer in NB . But does that exclude me from having an opinion on things Canadian . Yes I am showing symapthy for existing teams .

But the CSA's support of one stadium and one team is not the position a "national" body should take .

I realize where I live is small and in many folks opinions considered insignificant. But I'd like to feel that I am Canadian and can comment on Canadian issues.

Most of my views on this topic has been posted many times so I won't repeat them again .

Except to repeat that the CSA is out of it's jurisdiction as a NATIONAL body to show such support for one stadium and one team whilst ignoring existing pro clubs and not realizing that there are stadiums in place in Canada now that are essentially what the new York U stadium will be ....FRANK CLAIR , PERCIVAL MOLSON, COMMONWEALTH etc.

So the only conclusion to be drawn is that they aren't in the GTA so they can't be used and that these stadiums are unfit for the MLS so we need a new stadium for the only place a team can be in the CSA's mindset.

If private concerns (like the Argos & York U ) want to build a stadium and find other tenants that's business , right on ! But the CSA has no place in being directly or indirectly involved .

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quote:Originally posted by argh1

Ya know , I (not that my opinion counts for much) could probably accept an MLS team more readily if private interests were hawking it . Then fine it's your money go for it .

Also I am not against a new stadium in the GTA . What I am against is the CSA being the pitch man . Those opposed to my opinion are also right that I have no figures to back up my claims it is really just an emotional response . But the CSA has no place in backing a stadium or one team.

What do they want the ........ahhhh..... I forget what NASL called it......"TEAM CANADA" maybe ?

EDIT :

Grasshopper I just read your post sorry for the late edit.

Now I am not expecting pro soccer in NB . But does that exclude me from having an opinion on things Canadian . Yes I am showing symapthy for existing teams .

But the CSA's support of one stadium and one team is not the position a "national" body should take .

I realize where I live is small and in many folks opinions considered insignificant. But I'd like to feel that I am Canadian and can comment on Canadian issues.

Most of my views on this topic has been posted many times so I won't repeat them again .

Except to repeat that the CSA is out of it's jurisdiction as a NATIONAL body to show such support for one stadium and one team whilst ignoring existing pro clubs and not realizing that there are stadiums in place in Canada now that are essentially what the new York U stadium will be ....FRANK CLAIR , PERCIVAL MOLSON, COMMONWEALTH etc.

So the only conclusion to be drawn is that they aren't in the GTA so they can't be used and that these stadiums are unfit for the MLS so we need a new stadium for the only place a team can be in the CSA's mindset.

If private concerns (like the Argos & York U ) want to build a stadium and find other tenants that's business , right on ! But the CSA has no place in being directly or indirectly involved .

What you seem to be forgetting is that this stadium is pretty much key to Canada getting the U20 championships in 2007, as FIFA would not allow a large scale tournament like the U20s to take place everywhere except the country largest city and media capital.

(Please nobody bring up the women's U19 tourney as a counterpoint, because that was a tournament that nobody wanted which is nowhere near as high profile as the men's U20 tournament).

So in that sense, it is absolutely the job of the CSA to push for that one stadium in the one city that the rest of Canada seems to hate (for whatever reason), as it would benefit the entire country.

A possible MLS team is just a by-product of this stadium being built.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

If Yallop so wants to pay against CONCACAF teams, he should be having a Canada B team playing during the winter instead of sending players into an MLS team that won't work.

Seems that those who think not having MLS is inferior are obviously not knowing much of the minor leagues.

Any talk of the Raptors, Jays, or Expos having a positive effect on sports in Canada is just plain stupid.

Hmmm. I could be mistaken but I think that Canada came fourth in the Olympics in Baseball in Athens. That is just shy of a medal. And when this year's MLB playoff started there was a record number of Canucks--7--involved.

As far as the hoops goes, while Canada's Men's basketball Olympic qualifying was a great disappointment, I believe that failure had more to do with injuries/illnesses (Todd MacCulloug) hand guys who didn't accept their callups (Jarome Magloire, Carl English). You can look at the guys who are currently participating in the NCAA, a few of whom will eventually make it to the NBA or will ply their trade in Europe oneday.

Your'e right Bro. Any talk of the Raptors, Jays or Expos having any sort of effect on Canada is stupid... The increased number in the NCAA if probably just a fluke, too.

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