Kevan Pipe and MLS

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Yeah kinda makes you sick don't it. WCQ team crash and burn .....no Canadian league or support from the CSA for one .But Mr. Sharpe is "ecstatic" about one stadium and one potential team in one city .

Make's ya wonders if there's any point in supporting Canadian soccer 'cuz apparantly the CSA only cares 'bout soccer in one city .

So Toronto go for it ...if the CSA wanna give it ....take it

What's he supposed to? If your announcing a big project like this, you want him to come across like its a bad news announcement? This is a good story and the spin has to be as positive as possible.

db

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by marcl_19

mls = good for canadian soccer......a new better csl would be better than mls but the money really just isnt there, otherwise i'd be allf or a csl

I have always said that a new CSL would be better for Canadian Soccer (and a better investment) than a single MLS team. The problem is that I have no way of even getting the guys with money to look at the differences and expected returns. I would bet that whoever ends up buying an MLS franchise will NOT be making a choice between clearly articulated options (MLS vs CSL) but will simply be looking at yet another sports franchise for T.O.

Frankly though, with the price drop (from U.S.$20M a couple of years ago to only U.S.$10M today) and the new stadium going ahead it sure looks like a real possibility. All I can do now is hope that the new team is a positive force in Canadain Soccer. Will it work with "Div 2" (A-League) and "Div 3" (the CPSL and PCSL)? Will they play lower division teams in friendlies, or even better, an Open Cup? Will they make any sort of payments to lower division teams for players?

I guess only time will tell since it will be years (at least 2007 or later) before an MLS team plays out of T.O. The best use of our energy right now is the ouster of Kevan Pipe from the CSA and a shake-up on the Board of Directors.

[8D]

[Joe Keeper]

This could be very good for Canadian soccer. But what would it do to the hopes of pro soccer really suceeding in other cities?

With canadian club soccer trying to focus on three or for different leagues individually (MLS, A-league, CPSL and other minor leagues), this could complicate the whole system. As well, smaller markets

(Calgary,Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Victoria, A Saskatchewan club, Hamilton, Quebec city, Halifax etc..)could find it harder to operate with the Canadian fan focus being so spread out, and with the lack of nearer canadian markets.

If this Toronto MLS thing does indeed go forth, the CSA has to also tackle this issue and create something like an umbrella organisation to ensure that all the clubs opperate on the same page developmentaly and to ensure all levels are viable.

It would have to be something like a pyramid.

At the top would be MLS Toronto

then (ideally) six to eight A-league teams

followed by CPSL and PCSL

then the top amateur leagues such as AMSL, LSEQ +others

finnally other competative amateur leagues such as VMSL, WOSL etc

If this sort of altered CUSL could be set up, culminating in a Canadian Open cup, it could be very viable. We would be getting a top level (for N. america) soccer club as well as making what we already have work in a succesful infrastructure.

The real trick is getting the CSA to take some action on defending the interests of clubs out side of Toronto, including getting a few more a-league clubs into the mix for the rest of the country.

[canso]

How big is that divide between A-league and MLS? Most MLS teams have or are trying to build 20-25k soccer specific stadiums, I think Rochester has a similar size stadium, doesn't Minnesota, Seattle and Portland have the capacity to draw 20k as well? How hard would it be to expand the capacity for the Impact and Whitecaps to get 20k a game? If MLS is going to bill itself as Tier I then they should permit a relegation/promotion scenario with A league clubs, most of whom could probably get up to MLS standard, on the field and at the box office, fairly easily. I would be curious to see the Impact compete against MLS teams next year, anyone know if they will have that opportunity any time soon?

[Bxl Boy]

I agree with canso

One "fixed" canadian team in MLS will be a disaster for the whole canadian soccer

It's already difficult enough to give motivation to young players here in Quebec because the only future is the Impact

With Toronto in MLS, there will be only one future in the whole Canada : that team

I think it's better to make the A-League grow and grow

And when the gap will be closer (beacuse it will be), then, merge with the MLS like canso said

Please, stop with giving teams for money and not caring about results on the field, it's killing the players motivation

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Bxl Boy

I think it's better to make the A-League grow and grow

And when the gap will be closer (beacuse it will be), then, merge with the MLS like canso said

It was never suggested that A-League expansion and strengthening

was to be neglected. A strong A-League is good as well. But private

investment in a Toronto MLS is bad? Because it will "weaken" the

A-League? The A-League is already 2nd tier!

An MLS team in Canada is good because strong teams can join later

(Vancouver and Montreal). And the A-League may be the only

option for Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Victoria, London, and Halifax.

Why do we fear having an MLS team? If it's private money and the

product is relatively good, many people would support it. Maybe

as more Canadian teams join the A-League, we'd essentially have

sort of CUSL within a 2nd tier framework.

Any step is generally a step forward. Remember a week ago, we

didn't have a stadium in Toronto as the U of T had a change of heart ...

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by canso

If MLS is going to bill itself as Tier I then they should permit a relegation/promotion scenario with A league clubs, most of whom could probably get up to MLS standard, on the field and at the box office, fairly easily.

That won't happen simply because MLS is based entirely on the franchise system. You get into the league by buying into it, a la Salt Lake and Chivas. Plus, the league likely will continue with divisional formats and unbalanced schedules, not to mention playoffs.

It's unfortunate as promotion/relegation adds excitement to the game but the investors in MLS will never, ever let that happen. They're losing enough without the threat of dropping a division and all that entails.

I think the only A-League teams that make it to MLS will be ones that are granted expansion franchises. I guess we'll see what pans out.

[soccerbeast]

The MLS is a must for Toronto, people want to see the best quality

football they can and the A-league is not that. And a true Canadian

league will never take off , it's been tried and failed a number of times

[soccerbeast]

The MLS is a must for Toronto, people want to see the best quality

football they can and the A-league is not that. And a true Canadian

league will never take off , it's been tried and failed a number of times

[DoyleG]

This things is starting to grow more and more into an idea that an MLS team is really a way for Kevin Pipe to cement his legacy. If this is the case, then soccer in this country is really screwed.

Any Canadian city is well behind American cities that are still in the running for an MLS franchise. Rochester, San Antonio, Seattle, Portland, Houston, St. Louis and even Las Vegas are beign talked about as franchises. Miami and Tampa still show up on the radar. Salt Lake always appeared as an expansion site so getting a team isn't that really a shock.

It has been stated in ther past the Saputo and Kerrfoot have no interest in MLS. Seems they've done their homework and know how big of an investment is needed in the league.

No doubt that MLS has learned from the history of the NBA, NHL and MLB in having cross-border teams. They certainly wouldn't be one to deal with two countries with two systems. They would seemingly be more willing to have a Canadian invest in an American team.

Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn" situation than any thats been seen in sports history here in Canada.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

This things is starting to grow more and more into an idea that an MLS team is really a way for Kevin Pipe to cement his legacy. If this is the case, then soccer in this country is really screwed.

Any Canadian city is well behind American cities that are still in the running for an MLS franchise. Rochester, San Antonio, Seattle, Portland, Houston, St. Louis and even Las Vegas are beign talked about as franchises. Miami and Tampa still show up on the radar. Salt Lake always appeared as an expansion site so getting a team isn't that really a shock.

It has been stated in ther past the Saputo and Kerrfoot have no interest in MLS. Seems they've done their homework and know how big of an investment is needed in the league.

No doubt that MLS has learned from the history of the NBA, NHL and MLB in having cross-border teams. They certainly wouldn't be one to deal with two countries with two systems. They would seemingly be more willing to have a Canadian invest in an American team.

Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn" situation than any thats been seen in sports history here in Canada.

Are you seriously suggesting that a Toronto MLS team, at a cost of $10 million US, would "crash and burn" worse than the Vancouver Grizzlies, which had a price tag in the hundreds of millions?

And how was Salt Lake "always" on the radar in terms of MLS expansion. It wasn't until less than a year ago that any serious talk surrounded putting a team there. Before, Salt Lake was just thrown into the pot by fans and journalists speculating on where MLS could go next. It was essentially placed on lists made by people not oin the know, as simply as you or I could name off a bunch of cities without any real basis other than the fact that a team is not there.

[Kelly]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn" situation than any thats been seen in sports history here in Canada.

Even more so than the Aviators? that's technically impossible. Edmonton will always hold the bar for biggest flop ever.

[kelownaguy]

For the life of me, I just cannot believe that some guys here are completely against MLS. Please tell me how is this going to hurt Canadian soccer ??? We have hit rock bottom right now, and have nothing to lose. First things first, as a realist, there will not be a big "all-canadian" soccer league which so many people want to see. There is just no fan interest (we can barely manage 4 A-league teams), and not enough money to keep the quality players around. What this country needs is promotion of the sport of soccer, we do that through big league sports that the media follows, and able to see the games on TV. I live on the west coast and I watch every Blue Jay and Raptor game thats on tv cause they are "Canada's team" Would I watch a AAA minor league game on tv involving the Edmonton Trappers or Ottawa Lynx, ummmmm no. I could care less about that cause its minor leagues and not top calibre players.. Its the same for all sports and I think it would be the same for soccer. These new Argo owners want another tenant for their stadium, this helps increase their profits, if they own an MLS team in their own stadium then its a win/win situation for them. I don't care if its one team or five , it promotes the game of soccer in our country to gain more fan interest, and if it helps some of the younger Canadian National team players develop against very good calibre competition, then thats a bonus.....please tell me again, how is MLS going to hurt us?? what's the worst that could happen ?? the team folds??...that won't affect us....What have we got to lose....??

[beachesl]

Interesting to compare and contrast (hozat for an essay topic, studentz?) the situation on Australia, which despite their woes, are miles ahead of us in overall soccer development. Given their problems in reorganizing a top soccer league, perhaps our piggybacking through the USL (and maybe MLS) is not such a bad idea for now.

Note the paragraph I bolded below about the government inquiry (and this in a country where soccer perhaps rates only 5 or 6 in popularity). This is what our federal government did to improve our hockey organization 30 odd years ago, and is an important step needed here. What do we need before the Federal Government (which may be the only organization capable of cutting the gordian knot of red tape, overadministration and ineptitude) steps in and says "WTF?" ? Do we acually need a picture of someone with their fingers in the proverbial cookie jar before they are spurred to act?

----------------------------------------------------

Australia's new league stays under wraps

By Greg Buckle

MELBOURNE, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Australia's new soccer league should have been announcing the names of its eight member teams this week but financial problems disrupted its plans.

Players' fears about salary caps and too few matches, as well as national apathy towards soccer, are posing a challenge to those organising the new, slimmed-down league.

"If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys," Malaysia-based Australian international Ante Milicic told journalists.

"It would be hard to attract the sort of talent to excite fans with such a low salary base."

The league, due to start next year, will have a proposed salary cap of $1.5 million per squad, although each club would be allowed to attract one or two stand-out players with a higher annual salary than the average $90,000.

According to Australian newspapers, Milicic earns $200,000 a year with his club Pahang and also gets a house and a car. His salary could more than double if Pahang qualify for next season's Asian Champions League.

British-based Australian internationals, such as Liverpool's Harry Kewell, Middlesbrough's goalkeeper Mark Schwarzer and club mate Mark Viduka, and Glasgow Rangers defender Craig Moore, the Socceroos captain, are unlikely to accept big pay cuts to move home next year.

Striker Viduka reportedly earned $115,000 a week at Leeds before his move to Middlesbrough in July.

FINANCIAL DRAMAS

Despite being a sports-mad country, Australia prefers the two rugby codes and Australian rules football to soccer, the most popular football code elsewhere in the world.

The Socceroos have not qualified for the World Cup since 1974, though they are in the final phase of the Oceania qualifiers for the 2006 cup.

Years of factional in-fighting and associated financial dramas in Australian soccer prompted the federal government to hold an inquiry last year which recommended that the national governing body's entire board of directors should quit.

The board was dissolved and the new Australian Soccer Association (ASA) was formed under the chairmanship of one of Australia's richest men, Frank Lowy.

He picked John O'Neill, the former boss of the Australian Rugby Union, to be the ASA chief executive and the association set about creating a new league with eight instead of 13 teams.

The teams are expected to come from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth, Newcastle, the New South Wales central coast and Auckland in New Zealand.

ASA spokesman Matt Carroll said this week's announcement of the line-up had been delayed because the Victory group, who were bidding for the Melbourne team licence, needed to prove their ability to raise the minimum funds of A$4million ($2.88 million).

"We definitely want a team in Melbourne, and giving them extra time is a lot better than the ASA having to get it organised and find other investors," Carroll told The Age newspaper.

SHORT DELAY

The ASA has already headed off a possible hitch with Adelaide United, who withdrew their application but resubmitted it a week later and signed on to be part of the new league.

"With the Fox Sports (pay television) broadcast deal in place and a naming right sponsor to be announced shortly, today's announcement is another vote of confidence in the new competition," O'Neill said when he gave the news about Adelaide on October 7.

ASA spokesman Stuart Hodge said this week that no new date had been set for announcing the full line-up but the delay was expected to be short.

A September 2005 kick-off is proposed, allowing officials to avoid clashing with the dominant southern winter codes of rugby league, rugby union and Australian Rules football.

Former Socceroos and England coach Terry Venables will return to Australia as coach of Newcastle United next year in a boost for the profile of the game in Australia.

World governing body FIFA president Sepp Blatter welcomed the appointment of Venables, adding: "Perhaps his example will be followed by other coaches coming in."

O'Neill, who masterminded last year's successful staging of the Rugby World Cup in Australia, warned when he took on his new job in March that the sport desperately needed the new league to be a success.

"This is the last throw of the dice for Australian soccer," O'Neill said.

"I don't have a magic wand to create miracles. The next three or four years are incredibly important to us."

[RJB]

The CSA needs to stop working on the stadium and start working on it's programs. Our MNT is not worthy of a brand new facility. Let's make the team good, and then give them a stage. Invest the stadium money into the program, then when they become succesful, you can recoup that money and build your stadium.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

The CSA needs to stop working on the stadium and start working on it's programs. Our MNT is not worthy of a brand new facility. Let's make the team good, and then give them a stage. Invest the stadium money into the program, then when they become succesful, you can recoup that money and build your stadium.

Yeah, but I think part of the reasoning here--good or bad--is chicken or the egg scenario. My guess is that the CSA feels that the money needed to run truly successful programs will not come until we have a respectable stadium (and useful tenant.) I can see their argument, though don't doubt it is faulted. (Yeah, I'm not particularly useful on this one.)

[Andrew W]

I don't think the CSA is pouring too many programming dollars into the stadium. In fact, I think the Argos, York U and the two levels of gov't are handling the cost. Now, in fairness, the two levels of gov't wouldn't be on board without the WYC in 2007.

Plus, I don't think the stadium will be for the MNT alone. The women's and age-group team's for both men and women will be able to use this facility (hopefully).

[kelownaguy]

Yes Krammer, its all my fault Canadian soccer is down the tubes, just because I am a typical Canadian fan that prefers watching big league sports with the worlds best athletes over minor league sports, I guess we should let Sharpe and Pipe off the hook now, they have nothing to do with our dismal performance...And I'm quite sure if you had the choice between watching a televised baseball playoff game between the Edmonton Trappers(AAA) and whoever, or the Yanks-Red Sox series, you'd definitely choose the Trappers game, of course you would, gimme a break man. The way the media and TV is these days, about 99% of sports fans follow the big leagues and NCAA sports cause you just get bombarded with it and the marketing, thats the way it will always be. I went to numerous Whitecaps games as a kid in the Lenarduzzi/Valentine days and loved it, and believe me when I tell you I'd love to see a Canadian league with great success, but I just don't see it happening because of money and lack of passionate soccer fans. Once again I ask, how is having MLS in Toronto going to hurt soccer in this country????? At the very least , it will promote the game more....

[hottoddy7]

I think for mls to be beneficial to canadian soccer we need more than the team in toronto(which we will have by2007). We need at least two other teams (Montreal and Vancouver?) but I'm not so sure that will ever happen.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Are you seriously suggesting that a Toronto MLS team, at a cost of $10 million US, would "crash and burn" worse than the Vancouver Grizzlies, which had a price tag in the hundreds of millions?

The Grizzlies never had the negative impact compared to what an SINGLE MLS team will have in Canada. Soccer doesn't have the resources to invest in such a "white elephant" venture.

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

And how was Salt Lake "always" on the radar in terms of MLS expansion. It wasn't until less than a year ago that any serious talk surrounded putting a team there. Before, Salt Lake was just thrown into the pot by fans and journalists speculating on where MLS could go next. It was essentially placed on lists made by people not oin the know, as simply as you or I could name off a bunch of cities without any real basis other than the fact that a team is not there.

Paying atention the rumour mill means much better benefits. Salt Lake gives a lot to MLS in the same way that other cities in the US do. Most of those cities in the US that want a team are more serious and bring more to the table than Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver can.

quote:Originally posted by Kelly

Even more so than the Aviators? that's technically impossible. Edmonton will always hold the bar for biggest flop ever.

There's been far worse in Canadian sports. Look harder.

[argh1]

I think the models to be looked at would be more Wales home league vs English home league or Irish home leagues vs English home leagues .

Do we really want to be like Wales with the "major league " teams playing in the English pyramid but part-timers playing in the domestic leagues. It may not be a fair comparison because of citizenship.

But I watched the CSA guy on Soccercentral and I just don't don't get it basicaly what Mr. CSA is and has said is ....we'll not step into CPSL or A-league business because that's league business but we have a hard on for MSL . The support for MSL would be more credible if the CSA was actively looking for owners for a failed Edmonton A-League team or if the CSA stepped into CPSL squabbles or helped the Lynx out .

So 15 or 16 guys will get jobs on one MLS team but how many won't get jobs because they neglect their jobs supporting CPSL or A-League .

As to the new stadium yippers Toronto needs a new pitch . But in all likely hood it will be plastic turf to meet the Argos needs . So now we'll have another Frank Clair or Pecival Molson stadium . Outside of another venue how has this helped Canadian soccer .

If the CSA is honest in promoting soccer in central Canada why have they given up on the Lynx, Supra , Olympic , Croatia and whatever other GTA pro or semi-pro team I missed and are looking for MLS to save the day . I would be happier if after the years the Lynx have held up the banner for pro soccer in the GTA if the CSA would jump on that bandwagon first before promoting the MLS . As in come see the GTA's top level pro team in their new digs . Or double , triple header days with the Lynx , Supra , Olympic exhaust the avenues currently in place before acting like a rat jumping from a sinking ship. What is the CSA saying to the owners who have been there over the years ?

I'm going to give up on this now because I feel the CSA's mind is made up . But I wonder if some-one wanted to join the A-League in one our middle markets how hot and horney Mr. CSA would be to promote and help them with their efforts.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

Yeah, but I think part of the reasoning here--good or bad--is chicken or the egg scenario. My guess is that the CSA feels that the money needed to run truly successful programs will not come until we have a respectable stadium (and useful tenant.) I can see their argument, though don't doubt it is faulted. (Yeah, I'm not particularly useful on this one.)

But the CSA is not really spending any resources or time on on the stadium. The $$$ all come from various levels of governments plus a little from the Argos. Also. its the Argos that are overseeing the project.

So it does NOT come down to a choice between focusing on the stadium or the players ( as RJB is alluding to). As far as we know, the only money from soccer poured into this project was the 600K and change that FIFA contributed and that was spent of the architectural aspects. So ( Reportedly) nothing came out of the CSA's coffers.

[yankiboy]

Not enough time to really comment on everything that I have read on this thread but here goes a few:

1) How could it hurt you guys to have an MLS franchise up North?

No disrespect, but you guys aren't exactly thriving when it come to

Pro clubs. Outside of the Montreal Impact (great story)

and maybe Vancouver, it's not like your A-league franchises are

doing really well. While the Vancouver Grizzles was a complete

debaucle, has having the TORONTO RAPTORS been "harmful" for

Canadian Basketabll? I don't think so.

2) Why TO and not Montreal? I love TO as much as the next Yank. I really

do. But damn. Look at the Impact. Look at what they have done.

Montreal looks like a hell of a lot better option as long as you have

if there was a stadium. Guess that is a big if. The Impact

are the one, lone, clear success story North of the Border.

3) Why in the world would MLS ever consider Edmonton or even Calgary?

No matter what you call the Edmonton team, it would be DOA.

History speaks for itself. Just cause you have an NHL franchise does

not make you a great candidate for a successful pro soccer franchise.

4) The A-League and MLS are not going to merge. You can forget

about that. This ain't the WHA & NHL. Or the NBA & ABA. It will NEVER

happen. There would be no benefits to MLS ownership to do so.

5) The provincial leagues are great but without CAPITAL (hey ROOTS--for

starters), it is a huge jump from semi-pro to pro. Again, example

A-League.

6) Salt Lake was in the right place at the right time. They got lucky

and had CAPITAL. We let Chivas in because we needed their CAPITAL.

The same will go for Club America if they buy in. I personally would

prefer that they NOT be involved in MLS, but that is capitalism.

7) Of course the MLS teams would use a Canadian content quota. The

A-League has franchises up North and one in PR and the USSF

has worked with them. So the whole "Canadian-content" question is

pretty much a moot one. There will be about 11 more canucks on an

MLS club than the Toronto Raptors and Blue Jays. Hell, it would

be more Canuck than a CFL team and some Canadian NHL franchises

percentage-wise. Think about it...

[Impact supporter]

quote:Originally posted by Bxl Boy

I think it's better to make the A-League grow and grow

And when the gap will be closer (beacuse it will be), then, merge with the MLS like canso said

Bxl Boy:

Besides merging MLS/A-League, why not set up 8 to 12 geographic regional conferences across North America(as we discussed before) and have the top winners play in a ''Can-Am Cup''??

Examples of regional conferences :

Northeast with Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Syracuse, Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh ;

Northwest with Vancouver, Victoria, Seattle, Tacoma, Portland, Eugene, Spokane, Idaho,

Just a thought.

[An Observer]

yankiboy...i pretty much agree with your comments. I think MLS would be supported in Toronto if is was marketed properly as Toronto only values US dominated leagues as it only thinks these are World Class. And it could work in Montreal if the Impact were to move into Molson stadium and the owner wished to join the MLS. Vancouver needs a stadium but it certainly has an owner and a pretty decent A-league fan base to build from. Other cities like Edmonton and Calgary first are highly unlikely to ever be MLS candidates. They first need to get decent facilities and think about the possibility of building a 3 to 5k fan base in the A-league. That's a hard enough reality.

A Canadian league is dumb idea which is really only perpetuated by those that are either dreamers or have their heads in the sand. It would do nothing for Canadian players development other than to worsen it as it would lower the quality of the competition they receive now and go no where to guarateening players full-time employment which is required for development. A tiered structure of 3 MLS sides, plus 6 A-league sides as feed teams for the MLS ones (possibly Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, Quebec City - Halifax would be difficult for travel reasons), and then regional leagues such as the CPSL, PCSL is the best that Canada can hope for.

Of course, I would love Canada to have 8 or 10 team league with each side getting a minimum of 10,000 to a game (which is needed for a full-time league minimum and personally I think its more than that). But in my opinion, that's 20 years away at best. If Canada could get to the stage above with 3 MLS sides and 6 A-league sides that have attendences of 8,000+, they can decide if they want to break away and form their own league. But otherwise, MLS is the way to go.