RJB Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I've read lots lately about how the best way to save Canadian soccer is to get a team in the MLS. Why? The Americans don't want us. Furthermore, what is wrong with a Candian League? We could have an East and a West, and they only play within themselves, and then the top team from either side has a two game final. It's logistic, and seems to make sense. Plus it beats tagging along with the Americans. It could look like this: West Abbotsford Vancouver Victoria Kelowna Kamloops Edmonton Calgary Saskatoon Regina Winnipeg East Toronto Hamilton Ottawa Montreal Quebec City Kingston Halifax St John's Charlottetown Oshawa Or something like that. Basically, ten top cities on either side. They play each other 3 times each, which gives them 27 games, or maybe even 4 times each, for 36 games. Then you have the final between the top teams, and top teams only! NO PLAYOFFS! And you could even have a mid season cup competition, where they are all drawn in the same pool. Who knows, it's just a suggested alternative to MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Sounds like the CPSL without the more extreme nerdy illusions of grandeur. You forgot the Maple Ridge franchise, buddy;) What about Sudbury, it has the largest grass stadium in Eastern Canada? Now that would be logistic. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Hey RJB, Although I understand your concerns, the problem with your Canadian Soccer League proposal is that most of your teams would have weak rosters and ownership groups. Imagine if half your league had the problems Calgary did last season and Edmonton did this season. Your league would collapse in it's first year. I think that there are two main ideas driving a wish for an MLS team. For one, that league's standard of play is (overall) higher than the A-League and certainly higher than any Canadian league would provide. Their length of season is also longer. Secondly, an MLS team would allow us to keep a core of players together year-round, which would greatly help making up for lack of friendlies and the costs of camps. If half of our 18-player roster came from such a team (gelled together in summer season form), we would have beaten Guatemala. Just some thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whither Canada Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by RJB I've read lots lately about how the best way to save Canadian soccer is to get a team in the MLS. Why? The Americans don't want us. Furthermore, what is wrong with a Candian League? We could have an East and a West, and they only play within themselves, and then the top team from either side has a two game final. It's logistic, and seems to make sense. Plus it beats tagging along with the Americans. It could look like this: West Abbotsford Vancouver Victoria Kelowna Kamloops Edmonton Calgary Saskatoon Regina Winnipeg East Toronto Hamilton Ottawa Montreal Quebec City Kingston Halifax St John's Charlottetown Oshawa Or something like that. Basically, ten top cities on either side. They play each other 3 times each, which gives them 27 games, or maybe even 4 times each, for 36 games. Then you have the final between the top teams, and top teams only! NO PLAYOFFS! And you could even have a mid season cup competition, where they are all drawn in the same pool. Who knows, it's just a suggested alternative to MLS. I still think MLS is the way to go, but with two or three Canadian teams. The level of competition in MLS, while still not optimal, would be considerably higher than an essentially semi-pro domestic league as described. How good would the ninth and tenth place teams be (or the fourth and fifth for that matter) in such a Canadian league? Although it's been 20-odd years (and counting!) since the heyday of Canadian WC campaigning, the key to that success was the NASL, from which the core of Canada's team was selected. The precedent is there. Something has to be done. What we've got now doesn't work. Of course this all hinges on whether MLS will have us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 If some mysterious investor was willing to pony up the money for the $10 million franchise fee, and throw in another 30-60 million for a stadium, MLS would be all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Hey, how is life down there in the land of Pelicans and Palms? Long time no see, CY! Didja make it to San Antoine to see Mexico whallop Dominica in the Alamodome? ___________________________________________________________________ “Julian in particular played like a drunken stepfather the past two games- absolutely unpredictable and sometimes dangerous, but never really in enough control of his own bodily functions to do any serious damage.” -nolando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_Rancagua Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 MLS is NOT</u> the answer here!!!!!!!!!!! We will need at least 4 to 5 Canadian clubs inside MLS in order to fix Canada's soccer problems. This task is too costly to be achieved within a 3 year period. Will the Americans allow Canadian clubs to expand so quickly into MLS??? I don't think so!!! Other than that, it will take about 10-12 years for MLS to accept 5 Canadian franchises at a cost that may range way into the $$$20-million for each club. Timing is precious here in order to waite that long. The more we waite, the more the Casnadian soccer program will suffer. I propose a revise version of the CUSL (even though this league never kicked off the ground). It is also important to initiate an open-cup tournament between the CUSL clubs versus the provincial leagues. This could only be achieved by amalgamating the provincial leagues. I am also sending an important suggestions to the members of this forum that the creation of women's league (W-CPSL) can not be ignored. Women in this country have demonstrated that they can play with the best. All these points have made them part of my manifesto of which I am expected to submit to the CSA soon. So please join in my fight for real change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua MLS is NOT</u> the answer here!!!!!!!!!!! We will need at least 4 to 5 Canadian clubs inside MLS in order to fix Canada's soccer problems. This task is too costly to be achieved within a 3 year period. Will the Americans allow Canadian clubs to expand so quickly into MLS??? I don't think so!!! Other than that, it will take about 10-12 years for MLS to accept 5 Canadian franchises at a cost that may range way into the $$$20-million for each club. Timing is precious here in order to waite that long. The more we waite, the more the Casnadian soccer program will suffer. I propose a revise version of the CUSL (even though this league never kicked off the ground). It is also important to initiate an open-cup tournament between the CUSL clubs versus the provincial leagues. This could only be achieved by amalgamating the provincial leagues. I am also sending an important suggestions to the members of this forum that the creation of women's league (W-CPSL) can not be ignored. Women in this country have demonstrated that they can play with the best. All these points have made them part of my manifesto of which I am expected to submit to the CSA soon. So please join in my fight for real change. Luis, I understand where you are coming from, but the problem is one of perceived legitimacy, as well as real financial issues. Like posted earlier, what good will we have done Canadian soccer if our league is occuppied by a swath of poorly financed teams who crumble faster than a Honduran in the penalty area? (Sorry, Lilloco). And, how willing will the Canadian public and media be to embrace ANOTHER Canadian soccer league. i can just hear the groans. I did not want the MLS option, but putting at least 3 teams into the MLS could possibly be a great step forward, especially if we look at some of the success the NASL brought to our soccer. I am not convinced the MLS will survive, but I have less faith in a Canadian-only league. I can't help but feel that with new stadiums in Vancoouver and Toronto, that both the Whitecaps and Lynx will make the move to the MLS. I hope to see the Impact there, too. Truth of the matter is that joining the MLS or starting a Canadian league WILL both take time to do properly. But there is no sense rushing into a bad situation. We must do this right so that it has the best chance of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC supporter Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I've always felt the number #1 drawback to national team success is the lack of time our players have to mesh as a unit. The players are overwhelmingly European-based and able to get together only for a day or two; plus, because of injuries, there's a constant turnover. Witness bringing in (and starting) Grande and Gervais against Costa Rica (both of whom, to their credit, were up to the challenge). Yet it's never been clear to me why people think a "Canadian league" will keep our top pros at home. The day will never arise when a Canadian league can pay anything remotely equal to European league wages. What, you're gonna stay in Sudbury for $15,000 for a couple of summer months instead of playing for high five or low six figures in Scandanavia? The one attraction of the MLS, even if it's just one team, is 12-15 Canadian pros making $50,000+US who can play together and be easily available for national team duty. There are undoubtedly some European-based pros who WOULD be attracted to that. That being said, good luck to Luis in search of enough pop bottles to launch a Canadian league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 As much as I honestly liked to see all 3 North American teams qualify for Germany. I as an American don't think that MLS is the way for Canada to go. MLS, along with Nike, USSF, and P-40 were all developed for the improvement of American talent, and even a small percentage of those resources shouldn't go to improving another countries national team. I also think it would be better for Canadian soccer in general if they were able to devolop there on league because it would belong to them and no one could say that the Americans are holding your hand through yet another sports endeavor. I want to see an interleague cup that all CONCACAF nations could benefit from. Canadians have a healthy love of sport just like everyone else, it's just getting the soccer related resources where they need to be that is the biggest hurdle.(stating the obvious) Also, and I'm sure that there is somewhere that I kind find this, but who are the sponsors of your national team? And I know ROOTS Athletic is a big name Canadian company, is there anything they do for your national teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by SamIAm As much as I honestly liked to see all 3 North American teams qualify for Germany. I as an American don't think that MLS is the way for Canada to go. MLS, along with Nike, USSF, and P-40 were all developed for the improvement of American talent, and even a small percentage of those resources shouldn't go to improving another countries national team. I also think it would be better for Canadian soccer in general if they were able to devolop there on league because it would belong to them and no one could say that the Americans are holding your hand through yet another sports endeavor. I want to see an interleague cup that all CONCACAF nations could benefit from. Canadians have a healthy love of sport just like everyone else, it's just getting the soccer related resources where they need to be that is the biggest hurdle.(stating the obvious) Also, and I'm sure that there is somewhere that I kind find this, but who are the sponsors of your national team? And I know ROOTS Athletic is a big name Canadian company, is there anything they do for your national teams? Sam, welcome to the forum. And though I sort of see your point, I do not see how our joining the MLS will rob the American system anyways. We must pay to join--$10 million--and I can't see how we'd get any of the cash that your billionaires are throwing into YOUR programs. The MLS would benefit by adding 3 potentially strong franchises in Canada, which could add more stability to the fledgling league, as well as create a nice marketing animosity between US and Canadian teams, as well as bring Canadian TV revenue into the mix (fingers crossed.) Our involvement need not hinder or bleed-dry any of your resources. By the way, in what areas is the US holding our hands through yet another sports endeavor? The point regarding ROOTS is a very good one, and one that I've raised here before. I think this would be a great move for ROOTS, if only because the international exposure on the football side of things could even eclipse the success they've derived from the Olympics. And the ex-pat Yanks (truly Canadian, now) who run ROOTS are bloody devoted to this country and are very forward-looking. Hell, let's get them to run the CSA, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcaout Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I think you're totally on the right track RJB. I've been thinking on the same lines for a long time. Canada needs a multi-city soccer league, that includes smaller centres. This league wont be at the A league level, it maybe should be around the Canadain college or provincial league level. It is important that kids and soccer fans have a place they can go in their city to watch THEIR team. Living in Regina, I've never seen a pro game in my city, nor have I ever seen a creditable league game. Apparently there was some kind of 6 team league in Sask a year or two ago, but I have no idea what happened to that. Teams just come together then break apart in a few years and that the league, a collection of players who wanted to play, so they orginized games with others. What is needed is community based, local teams that can play in trans-West/east leagues. Give a place for A league or lower level players to play. Keep the squads young, almost like major junior hockey, so wages aren't a big priority, and allow developement in youth and continuation of play with older footballers. I'd like to see more teams then RJB has suggested, like major junior, but there could be some kind of lower division, like 18-20 teams in each east and west. If cities like Redeer, Brandon, Prince Albert, Moose Jaw can bring in 500-1000 ppl then why couldn't they fill out a second div. I know though this isn't the way the CSA is looking after mentioning a major junior like soccer league to Frank Yallop. He was very much in favour of an Canadian MLS team, and dismissed my idea for lack of investment. He's probablly right. I don't know how much tickets would cost, 5$ or less seems to make sense to me, I'm sure though they'd have to be more expensive, but really even for five would ppl pay? I doubt it. It seems to me everyone wants to watch, at least, the whitecaps (if not ManU) if their going to pay money for viewing soccer. Get over it! All those famous teams in England started as small groups playing to the masses, they grew followings, then they grew permient places within cities. It's time we bite the bullit and through some teams down. They aren't going to be A league, but you have to start some where. If you envolve communities, kids, families, in the begining then hopefully they grow up around the club and maybe play for it one day, or at least have a place for it in their heart. For me MLS is an American league, I don't care about it! I don't like American soccer, I don't like the nats, I don't like their players, and I know the MLS will never come to my city. As developement, for a stronger national team might be the correct route, but it wont develop a strong following of Canadian soccer. There wasn't an explosion of soccer love after the Gold Cup win, success didn't unite the country and get everyone thinking soccer. Even then an MLS team wouldn't be able to be seen by the country live, no one in Swift Current is going to consider a Toronto team local, or important. They'd be as well off cheering for ManU, get to seem them the same on TV, get the same news, and everything. So for me, to create a stronger soccer nation we need an national league, and soon. It's level should be local and made up of the best players around. It could be a level or 2 lower then A league but we need a start! I want to live and see MY local team play in MY city against another CANADIAN club, I've never seen that. I also agree about the trans-canadian cup compition and that there shouldn't be a play-off format to any soccer league in the future. Those are the thoughts I could spew out right now. I hope many of you on the board have similar fillings as i do, and that one day there will be many teams in Canada for all to cheer for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by The Beaver Sam, welcome to the forum. And though I sort of see your point, I do not see how our joining the MLS will rob the American system anyways. We must pay to join--$10 million--and I can't see how we'd get any of the cash that your billionaires are throwing into YOUR programs. The MLS would benefit by adding 3 potentially strong franchises in Canada, which could add more stability to the fledgling league, as well as create a nice marketing animosity between US and Canadian teams, as well as bring Canadian TV revenue into the mix (fingers crossed.) Our involvement need not hinder or bleed-dry any of your resources. By the way, in what areas is the US holding our hands through yet another sports endeavor? The point regarding ROOTS is a very good one, and one that I've raised here before. I think this would be a great move for ROOTS, if only because the international exposure on the football side of things could even eclipse the success they've derived from the Olympics. And the ex-pat Yanks (truly Canadian, now) who run ROOTS are bloody devoted to this country and are very forward-looking. Hell, let's get them to run the CSA, too. Thank you for the welcome Beaver, this is a really great site. Let me just start by commenting on the holding hand thing, now that I read it, it does seem kind of harsh. But, come on how well do Canadian expansion teams do from a financial stand point. And as for a "fledgling" league, I think with soccer being a minor sport MLS is doing ok for itself and the infrastructure is still growing. A couple more teams in US cities over the next few years, new stadiums, and two full seasons will do wonders. My main point was just that a US soccer league should not by any means be a feeder for other national teams and that is the bottom line, because honestly that is all it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 A-greed. Wouldn't sweat MLS Canadian expansion. Red Herring ment to provoke discussion of pro-league footie in Canada by those with cash. The day MLS is allowed to accept foreighn clubs is the day FIFA accepts that the Old Firm should be allowed to swim with the bigger fish to the south and not have to settle for a Scottish pond inhabited by so many minnows. I'm certainly not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 The MLS has aready said they would accept a team in Toronto, with Montreal and Vancouver possible. The idea of a canadian league is just as good as our world cup hopes, none. the ethnic communities (italian, greek,,portugese won't support soccer here it's that simple. Nobody is going to put money in a canadain league that has been proven time and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Financial backing is the key to making soccer viable in Canada. The CSL was a great league that helped many of our players develop. However financially it wasn't viable as costs escalated, and finally ended when Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal decided to join the American Professional League, which later became the A-League. The CSL succeeded to an extent, without the so-called ethnic support. What the CSA wants is an MLS franchise in Toronto and A-League teams in the other Canadian cities. The problem again is money and proper stadiums (ie. Calgary and Edmonton). This will therefore take time to develop. I just want an alternative place for our players to play at the highest possible level, other than Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadienfan Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Did the CSA say it would put money into getting a MLS team(s)? And also does the MLS have a player draft each year? It would be great if anyone could answer these 2 questions for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernando fiore Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 I dunno maybe you should join the Costa Rica league! our team need to have more practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Canadienfan Did the CSA say it would put money into getting a MLS team(s)? And also does the MLS have a player draft each year? It would be great if anyone could answer these 2 questions for me! Well,the USSF is a sponsor of MLS, so just to even things out I would think the CSA would have to contribute something monetarily to the deal if Canada does get a team. And yes the MLS does have a draft each year, most of them are the boys graduating from Bradenton i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcaout Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 So beast, do you believe that we should get a MLS team in Canada? You seem prepared to oppose the opinions of others with out showing what you think is best. It's also great that you have no passion for a local team in your area, maybe your close enough to T.O. that it doesn't matter to you. The fact is if 16 soccer players from one place can afford to travel to a different city, play a game and stay one night or comeback, maybe 9 times that would be a Canadian soccer league in the west. It's that simple and you cannot see that as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownaguy Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Any Canadian league created would simply be a mickey mouse developer league for the A-league at best. There is simply no companies that want to lose money supporting it, and not near enough fans in this country to support anything bigger than it. You would never get any half decent player to play in it with the ridiculously small wages they would be making as well. I just can't see people in Canada even supporting a "major-junior" type soccer league like they do the CHL even though I would love to see it. If we started off with one MLS team in Toronto, it would act as a Canada "B" team, I'll betcha Lars Hirschfeld wouldn't mind seeing some first side action with them rather then sitting on the bench in Scotland. You could probably also attract other national team calibre players like a Jason Bent, Tom Nsaliwa , Tony Menezes , Vic Oppong, that just don't seem to really be solidified with teams each season. If MLS works in Toronto, then maybe down the road you try in Montreal and Vancouver as well,, but one step at a time. An MLS franchise would at least gain soccer some more media attention in Canada, and I'm quite sure I would follow a Toronto team and cheer for them (especially with Canadian players involved) just as I cheer for the Blue Jays as Canada's team even though I'm in B.C. The best part is, with an MLS/Canada "B" team, if a situation like the Guatemala game arises again, you can use half that team that are used to playing with each other, and the other half our top guys from Europe, you may have a much better result. I truly think starting with one MLS franchise is the way to go to get soccer going in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 People here who might invest in MLS aren't because the league still bleeds red ink at a large rate. We know that Saputo and Kerfoot aren't interested in MLS for that reason. Try also finding an owner to would accept his team as a developmental side while knowing he would lose several players to call-ups duing the season. An owner would want to put a competitive team on the field with few distractions. Starting with an 8-team Canadian League would be a much better option. It would be higher than the A-League in level of play because they would need to be in order to survive. It would also be much more of an easy sale to the Canadian public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Let me sy that I am in favour of MLS in Canada, the way I am in favour of our clubs in the A-League. But sure, I don't put up the money, I am not a patron of sport losing money on a dream or hobby. So if someone is willing to foot the bill, that would mean having a dozen Canadians playing on a higher level. And I think it would also have to imply changes in the MLS rules, meaning Canadians would have to have more advantages playing in other MLS teams. There would have to be a type of reciprocity. Except for the CFL we have always had our leagues tied into the North American pro structure. Even then, except for hockey, the franchises are no wonders (and even then we have lost great clubs to markets down south). When the NASL existed it benefited us clearly. As is, you could take about ten players currently outside of Canada who would likely be here playing if the MLS had a team in Toronto, those who are not making much more outside of Canada or want to play closer to home (we might see, of the guys on the squad or recently in the pool, players like Hirschfeld, Atiba, Simpson, Serioux, Bent, Occean, Canizalez, Pozniak, Bernier, Reda, Menezes, Hastings, maybe others). I say might as I know some will always jump to higher salaries overseas (Occean rejected MLS for this reason), but that step would come later, and we'd have a better pool closer to home. Many playing together and used to each other. The overseas guys would be the quality complement to that group. But since this is all moot, since MLS won't happen until 2010 maybe (or maybe a couple years earlier, after the stadium is build in TO), we still have to find a way to get our talent, which is growing and quite respectable, to perform for the nats in the critical moments. So I agree with those who criticize the CSA for pandering to MLS as it is a subterfuge as things now stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Jeffrey et al., the new question then: If a strong domestic league or MLS expansion is still a long ways away, and considering we need our best players to play together much more regularly, what sorts of solutions do you suggest? For instance, the idea of having a camp based in the UK--like the Aussie's use/used--so that our Euro players can train together regularly and play friendlies, has been raised. Is this the sort of short-term solution that would benefit the program, knowing this means we'll play very few games on home soil? (I'm not sure if we have much of a choice, to be honest). Any other ideas for the short term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 i've said it before and I'll say it again...the casual canadian sports fan will not watch any league of any sport that does not appear to be "big league" and is validated by an american media presence. even the CFL has a tough go, with 100 years of history behind it. 2 or 3 MLS teams and a few strong a-league teams is the best solution, in my mind...an all-canadian league will never gain support among the non "hard core" fan and mls is the best option we have for something more main stream. with a better calibre of player based in north america, we might have some better talent to call on when we need last minute additions to the national team...we saw last week that calling up guys from europe is not possible, so we are stuck with the a-league guys as our only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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