trueviking Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 in 1997 we were ranked 40th in the world with this team: Craig Forrest (ipswich - division 1 england) Frank Yallop (tampa bay - mls) Mark Watson (columbus - mls) Iain Fraser (new england - mls) Nick Dasovic (St. Johnstone - spl) John Limniatis (montreal (a-league) Fernando Aguiar (FC Nacional, Portugal. Division 2) Lyndon Hooper (montreal a-league) Colin Miller (Dunfermline - spl) Tomasz Radzinski (Germinal Ekeren - Belgium) Domenic Mobilio (vancouver - a-league) Alex Bunbury (FC Maritimo Portuguese first division) Carlo Corazzin (Plymouth Argyle - Second Division) in 1986 we qualified for the world cup with this team: Branko Segota San Diego Sockers (misl) Igor Vrablic Seraing (BEL) Mike Sweeney Cleveland Force (misl) Randy Samuel (no club) George Pakos Victoria Athletics Dale Mitchell Tacoma Stars (misl) Paul James (no club) Greg Ion (no club) David Norman Tacoma Stars (misl) Jamie Lowery (no club) Pascale de Luca Cleveland Force (misl) Colin Miller Glasgow Rangers (SCO) Sven Habermann (no club) Paul Dolan Edmonton Brickmen in 2004 we are on the fringes of world soccer with this team: Lars Hirschfeld Dundee United, Scottish Premier Pat Onstad San Jose Earthquakes, MLS Jason deVos Ipswich Town, English First Division Kevin McKenna Heart of Midlothian, Scottish Premier Josh Simpson Millwall, English First Division Adrian Serioux Millwall, English First Division Paul Stalteri Werder Bremen, German Bundesliga Ante Jazic Rapid Vienna, Austrian First Division Patrice Bernier Moss FK, Norwegian First Division Daniel Imhof St. Gallen, Swiss First Division Marc Bircham Queen’s Park Rangers, English First Div. Mike Klukowski La Louviere, Belgian First Division Jim Brennan Norwich City, English Premier Atiba Hutchinson Helsingborg, Swedish Premier Division Julian deGuzman Hannover 96, German Bundesliga Iain Hume Tranmere Rovers, English Second Division Tomasz Radzinski Fulham, English Premier Paul Peschisolido Derby County, English First Division Dwayne de Rosario San Jose Earthquakes, MLS the million dollar question: why are we so weak today with almost every player in a top league in the world, when we were so much better with the rag tag teams of the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Champ Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I can't answer your question, but it's a good one. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SABuffalo786 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Because CONCACAF has improved along with you. It's much tougher now than it was in a Mexico-free 1986. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotas Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Very good comparison trueviking, very interesting as well. Here is my basic theory... Our team is currently so powerful on paper, but they just don't seem to gel as well as they should. Maybe back in 1986, when most of the team played in the MISL, each member of them played the same style of soccer, which made them gel as a TEAM. Now with so many leagues in the world and each league having such different styles, ie; Italia Serie A being so defensive and mostly conjusted midfield play and the English Premiership being a fast pace, attacking, longball game, its a bit different to play together. Well thats my theory anyways! Another example could be Guatemala, with 99% of them playing in their domestic league; hell, hate to say it but they looked like a real team, mainly because they play in the Guatemalan league, and play a Guatemalan (South American) style, which is speed and attack. Because of all of our players playing in different leagues around the world, its hard for them to play with their country teammates who play different styles. Its a case thats been going around forever; players who jump ship to another country to play and play crap because of the various styles of the game. An example would be Hernan Crespo, who was so great for Inter and came to England to play for Chelsea and just didn't adapt to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I remember 20 odd years ago we use to beat these concacaf teams hands down. There was never a question as to who was going to win. I think our players were more mature as well while the latinos were inexperienced and at a loss in front of our tough hombres. How things have changed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 quote:Originally posted by trueviking in 1997 we were ranked 40th in the world with this team: Craig Forrest (ipswich - division 1 england) Frank Yallop (tampa bay - mls) Mark Watson (columbus - mls) Iain Fraser (new england - mls) Nick Dasovic (St. Johnstone - spl) John Limniatis (montreal (a-league) Fernando Aguiar (FC Nacional, Portugal. Division 2) Lyndon Hooper (montreal a-league) Colin Miller (Dunfermline - spl) Tomasz Radzinski (Germinal Ekeren - Belgium) Domenic Mobilio (vancouver - a-league) Alex Bunbury (FC Maritimo Portuguese first division) Carlo Corazzin (Plymouth Argyle - Second Division) in 1986 we qualified for the world cup with this team: Branko Segota San Diego Sockers (misl) Igor Vrablic Seraing (BEL) Mike Sweeney Cleveland Force (misl) Randy Samuel (no club) George Pakos Victoria Athletics Dale Mitchell Tacoma Stars (misl) Paul James (no club) Greg Ion (no club) David Norman Tacoma Stars (misl) Jamie Lowery (no club) Pascale de Luca Cleveland Force (misl) Colin Miller Glasgow Rangers (SCO) Sven Habermann (no club) Paul Dolan Edmonton Brickmen in 2004 we are on the fringes of world soccer with this team: Lars Hirschfeld Dundee United, Scottish Premier Pat Onstad San Jose Earthquakes, MLS Jason deVos Ipswich Town, English First Division Kevin McKenna Heart of Midlothian, Scottish Premier Josh Simpson Millwall, English First Division Adrian Serioux Millwall, English First Division Paul Stalteri Werder Bremen, German Bundesliga Ante Jazic Rapid Vienna, Austrian First Division Patrice Bernier Moss FK, Norwegian First Division Daniel Imhof St. Gallen, Swiss First Division Marc Bircham Queen’s Park Rangers, English First Div. Mike Klukowski La Louviere, Belgian First Division Jim Brennan Norwich City, English Premier Atiba Hutchinson Helsingborg, Swedish Premier Division Julian deGuzman Hannover 96, German Bundesliga Iain Hume Tranmere Rovers, English Second Division Tomasz Radzinski Fulham, English Premier Paul Peschisolido Derby County, English First Division Dwayne de Rosario San Jose Earthquakes, MLS the million dollar question: why are we so weak today with almost every player in a top league in the world, when we were so much better with the rag tag teams of the past? In the 1986 team aren't you missing the likes of Bruce Wilson, Bob Lenarduzzi, Ian Bridge, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 It's an apples and oranges comparison. It's not the same. The key word is TEAM. The last game was atrocious yes, but I didn't think they played like a team, similar to 1997. But even then (1997), we didn't qualify. We get ranked more then because we played more, but to me it's simply this: a collection of superstars is not necessarily a great team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokanne Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 How can you gel as a team if you never play with each other. Guatemala had at least 3 friendlies between qualifiers, we had zero! The team had changed a lot of players between the last game and you expect everything to be perfect. Even the best teams in the world wouldn't even consider it. We need to find a way for the starters and the backups to get time playing together so they can know when and where to make runs and know where to look when your in trouble at the back. Otherwise you will end up with timid players who try and make things happen on their own and a backline that always plays it back to the keeper. If the keeper isn't expecting the ball even he will make mistakes, Onstad had no way of knowing that the ball was gonna be coming back to him every minute. Some players can't keep up to the level of play, but that shouldn't have mattered against Guatemala, they weren't that good of a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smash Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I wish it were just a problem of not being familiar with each other, but from the start the Canadian team was totally outrun and outsmarted. By the end our guys were kicking it away at random, as often off the pitch or to an opposing player. What I saw was utter disinterest and no semblance of smarts. Quite different than a problem of gelling, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Ref, Great topic!! How weird were (and to a lesser extent, still are)the rankings if we could rank 40th in 1997 but not have won a regional championship, and not have qualiied for the world cup for eleven years?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 In the 1986 team aren't you missing the likes of Bruce Wilson, Bob Lenarduzzi, Ian Bridge, etc. oops...you are right, sorry...i missed all of these guys. Tino Lettieri Minnesota Strikers (USA) Bob Lenarduzzi Tacoma Stars (USA) Bruce Wilson (no club) Randy Ragan (no club) Terry Moore Glentoran (northern ireland) Ian Bridge La Chaux de Fonds (SWI) Carl Valentine Cleveland Force (USA) Gerry Gray Chicago Sting (USA) the point is still made, but thanks for the correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Two things come to mind: 1)The play in the region amongst that top 6-8 sides has improved drastically. 2) The players now have to travel further to play in qualifiers. Thus mitigating most of the home side advantages. Things weren't all roses back them either. in 1986,k there were conflicts in priorities between WCQ and WC soccer versus the priorities of the indoor game and professional teams therein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I would say that they talent level was better in 86 and 97. The MISL was a better league then, that what the English First division is now. But more importanlt, I want to learn more about this No Club. Where did they play? and in what league. To have that many players on a national team is wonderful. If anyone has any insight into this No Club team please post it. No club should be used as the basis for any future pro league in Canada considering the talent they developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 quote:Originally posted by G-Man But more importanlt, I want to learn more about this No Club. Where did they play? and in what league. To have that many players on a national team is wonderful. If anyone has any insight into this No Club team please post it. No club should be used as the basis for any future pro league in Canada considering the talent they developed. we still use players from there...Jaime Peters plays for "no club" now, and i think lars was just transfered from them as well...they must have been relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 First, there is no comparison on talent. I will totally disagree that the 1986 team was more talented. On an individual basis, today's team is far more talented. The side in 1986 was strong in defensive organization overall but had very little offence if any. The fact that most of the players played in North America meant that getting them together was not difficult. The issue today is having the time to get a group of players together so they can gel as a team. In 1986, the defensive organization of the back four was probably stronger and the goalkeeper, Dolan, was a shot stopper but not really outstanding. Also, there was little or no chance of seeing that back four come forward in attack. Stalteri and Jazic are far more individually talented than any of the back four in 1986. Today's midfield players like de Guzman, Serioux, Hutchinson, and Simpson are head and shoulders above the midfielders of 1986 in terms of individual talent. To even compare the likes of David Norman, Paul James Randy Ragan, and Gerry Gray to the individual talents of our current midfield is almost silly. Again the 1986 team played well as a team. Vrablic and Valentine in terms of talent? Valentine was an aging striker that once played in the old Division 1 (premier league today)with WBA but with less success than Radzinski today. Vablic considering where he was playing would not even be considered in today's team. If I remember correctly, he was not a regular starter at Seraing. A further note, Randy Samuel was probably considered the most talented defender in 1986. After the World Cup in 1986, he was signed by PSV at the age of 21-22. Still I don't believe he saw much of the field with PSV and was subsequently shuttled to Volendam and Fortuna Sittard. Fortuna Sittard ended up getting relegated while he was there. I don't know if he was a starter for many years if any in Holland. Granted the Dutch league was stronger in 1986 than it is today. Still, today we have defenders starting in various top domestic leagues across Europe. For comparison purposes, I believe that the League Championship today is probably at a similar level as Division 2 was in 1986. I would also argue that today's EPL is stronger than Division 1 was in 1986 primarily because the EPL is allowed more foreignors than the old Division 1. As for the old MISL being stronger than today's League Championship? That is a hard comparison to make. Having seen both leagues during the respective eras in question, I can only say that the skills valued are too different. Segota and Gray were big stars in MISL but I don't think they would have been that successful in today's League Championship. However, I am sure that there are some player's in the League Championship that would have had difficulty in MISL. I don't have enough knowledge of the 1997 team to comment on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highburygooner Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 nah...No Club moved years ago to the hotbed of football known as Unattached. that's who jamie and lars have been with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 the old joke.. insert target here... When I was growing up I always though the Canadian National team nickname was Nil. Cause after every game, the announcer would say Aruba 2 Canada Nil or Cuba 1 Canada Nil or No Club 4 Canada Nil and so on and so on. And I was joking about the MISL! Major Indoor Soccer League...come on lads.. I really think that the game has changed in the last 5 years that for Canada to be successfull, all our starting 11 must playing top flight soccer. No 2nd divisions or A-league players. No one playing in Scotland or Sweden. They just don't cut it anymore. And I simply don't see Pat Onstad as top flight goalie, and I also don't see playing at Millwall impressive in this day and age. I just hope to god, for our sakes, that Hume goes EPL. 2nd division gang rapes of the ball aside, its just not good enough. And he derserves better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whither Canada Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 quote:Originally posted by G-Man But more importanlt, I want to learn more about this No Club. Where did they play? and in what league. To have that many players on a national team is wonderful. If anyone has any insight into this No Club team please post it. No club should be used as the basis for any future pro league in Canada considering the talent they developed. I still have the No Club shirt from those days......It's sort of flesh-coloured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 quote:Originally posted by trueviking in 1997 we were ranked 40th in the world with this team: Craig Forrest (ipswich - division 1 england) Frank Yallop (tampa bay - mls) Mark Watson (columbus - mls) Iain Fraser (new england - mls) Nick Dasovic (St. Johnstone - spl) John Limniatis (montreal (a-league) Fernando Aguiar (FC Nacional, Portugal. Division 2) Lyndon Hooper (montreal a-league) Colin Miller (Dunfermline - spl) Tomasz Radzinski (Germinal Ekeren - Belgium) Domenic Mobilio (vancouver - a-league) Alex Bunbury (FC Maritimo Portuguese first division) Carlo Corazzin (Plymouth Argyle - Second Division) in 1986 we qualified for the world cup with this team: Branko Segota San Diego Sockers (misl) Igor Vrablic Seraing (BEL) Mike Sweeney Cleveland Force (misl) Randy Samuel (no club) George Pakos Victoria Athletics Dale Mitchell Tacoma Stars (misl) Paul James (no club) Greg Ion (no club) David Norman Tacoma Stars (misl) Jamie Lowery (no club) Pascale de Luca Cleveland Force (misl) Colin Miller Glasgow Rangers (SCO) Sven Habermann (no club) Paul Dolan Edmonton Brickmen in 2004 we are on the fringes of world soccer with this team: Lars Hirschfeld Dundee United, Scottish Premier Pat Onstad San Jose Earthquakes, MLS Jason deVos Ipswich Town, English First Division Kevin McKenna Heart of Midlothian, Scottish Premier Josh Simpson Millwall, English First Division Adrian Serioux Millwall, English First Division Paul Stalteri Werder Bremen, German Bundesliga Ante Jazic Rapid Vienna, Austrian First Division Patrice Bernier Moss FK, Norwegian First Division Daniel Imhof St. Gallen, Swiss First Division Marc Bircham Queen’s Park Rangers, English First Div. Mike Klukowski La Louviere, Belgian First Division Jim Brennan Norwich City, English Premier Atiba Hutchinson Helsingborg, Swedish Premier Division Julian deGuzman Hannover 96, German Bundesliga Iain Hume Tranmere Rovers, English Second Division Tomasz Radzinski Fulham, English Premier Paul Peschisolido Derby County, English First Division Dwayne de Rosario San Jose Earthquakes, MLS the million dollar question: why are we so weak today with almost every player in a top league in the world, when we were so much better with the rag tag teams of the past? Those teams played with heart and soul for the national side, todays player are only concerned about thier careers, Raz being the main one. WE need more friendlies as a national side thats for sure at least 10 per season on top of Gold Cup ,WCQ etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 The 1986 team had some very talented players, many of who we tend to underrate today. I don't think a CONCACAF team has ever had a pair of outside backs as talented as Lenaduzzi and Wilson. They could have played in the top flight of England - which was producing most of the European Cup champs at the time in their prime (I am referring to 78-84 period as thier "prime" BTW). Randy Samuel was pretty good too. If all three were available today, then I think you'd see on Jason DeVos from this group starting in the back (Stalteri and Jazic on the team as midfielders). Incidently, both lenaduzzi and Wilson went forward very well with their NASL teams, Wilson with the Cosmos and Bobby L with the Whitecaps (watch the '79 Soccer Bowl for an example. Booby L is up all of the time). They may not have with the Nats but it was not because they could not. The 1986 MNT was very defensively oriented and with Mitchell going forward (in the games leading up) they could score enough goals to move on. Dale Mitchell was also very good, and scored 19 goals for Canada from the midfield. And Branko Segota was IIRC the leading North American born scorer in the NASL for all time. Neither Segota nor Mitchell got the time they deserved at the World Cup as Waiters felt that their indoor play (I think that was it) had them out of proper shape. As for the No Team bit, I think that in practical terms, only Jaime Lowry was (Mechanic from Victoria I think) was really unattached. Outside of the 5 guys I mentioned, and perhaps Dolan, this version of Canada is more talented. But they do not play as well as a team. Also, CONCACAF is just better. In 1986 the US was not a factor, and I beleive that it was the first time in a very long time that Costa Rica was even around for the last round. Keep in mind that Minnows were "powers" Haiti, El Salvador, Cuba, even Surinam givening Canada a run pre-1986. Things have changed. Canada is stronger, as is the rest of the confederation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well as has been said, CONCACAF is stronger, but I really think people are underestimating the 86 team. I think Lenarduzzi and Samuel circa 86 would start for us now and asside from DeVos and Stalteri. I'd take Bridge over any of our other central defenders (though I haven't seen enough of Reda). Wilson was better than all of them save Stalteri in his prime IMO, but he was showing his age a but in 86. More importantly the midfield in both those teams had bite and fight - Ragan, James, Norman, Gray and Dasovic, Aguiar, Limniatis, Aunger, Hooper, Miller - they wanted it more than the other team. They 86 group were skilled enough to compete with anyone if they worked as hard as they could and they did. Both teams also had skill guys, Vrablic, Segota, Valentine, these guys had a lot of talent. That 97 team had pure goal-scorers too. Bunbury, Pesch and Mobilio could flat out finish. The backline was strong too. I was never crazy about Fraser, but Yallop-Watson-Samuel was a steady, veteran combination with decent pace. Plus we had Craig back there too. We may have a lot of individual talent, but we don't play as a team and the work rate and committment and familiarity that the teams of the past had got them better results than we're seeing now. I don't think the current team is beyond that though. We have played with plenty of commitment and we've seen these guys play great together at times as seniors and more often at age level tournaments. It's time they start to bond again. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 quote:Originally posted by matthew More importantly the midfield in both those teams had bite and fight - Ragan, James, Norman, Gray and Dasovic, Aguiar, Limniatis, Aunger, Hooper, Miller - they wanted it more than the other team. They 86 group were skilled enough to compete with anyone if they worked as hard as they could and they did. Both teams also had skill guys, Vrablic, Segota, Valentine, these guys had a lot of talent. That 97 team had pure goal-scorers too. Bunbury, Pesch and Mobilio could flat out finish. The backline was strong too. I was never crazy about Fraser, but Yallop-Watson-Samuel was a steady, veteran combination with decent pace. Plus we had Craig back there too. We may have a lot of individual talent, but we don't play as a team and the work rate and committment and familiarity that the teams of the past had got them better results than we're seeing now. I don't think the current team is beyond that though. We have played with plenty of commitment and we've seen these guys play great together at times as seniors and more often at age level tournaments. It's time they start to bond again. I pretty much agree with most of what you say, but there is no way in hel* that I would choose Aunger over De Guzman. And while Bunbury was amazing, there's no way he was comparable to Radzinski. But yes, a collection of young stars is not a team yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 quote:Valentine was an aging striker that once played in the old Division 1 (premier league today)with WBA but with less success than Radzinski What crap. In 1986 Valentine was what 26-27? Yep what an aging striker. Considering he moved to the Whitecaps when he was 20 in 1979 and only played for for WBA for one year after the NASL folded it's pretty hard to comment about his success or lack of it. He was a damn good quality player, but I suppose it takes somebody who obviously never saw him play to calim otherwise. He turned down offers from Everton and Man City to stay with the Whitecaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 I wouldn't choose Aunger over anyone (wasn't I one of the ring leaders of the anti-Baby-Faced Assasin brigade back in the day? seems so long ago). But for all of Aunger's faults (I don't feel like going into them, but they were many) he won balls and never backed out of a challenge. We could use a few more guys like that right now. And as I say that it's not like Imhof, Serioux, DeGuzman, Simpson and these guys don't get in there and battle. But for some reason it just seems different. It seemed like there was less space for teams to play when they had Hooper and Dasovic on their tails. Our midfield now has more talent than I think any of the 97 mids and yet they seem to be less effective. I'd rather have Bunbury than Radzinski in their primes. Laugh if you want, but I'm serious. Bunbury was always committed. He was good in the air, I think his touch was better than Radz and he had pace. Not as fast as Radz, but he was more versatile. Radz is a poacher, but Bunbury rarely if ever disappeared from a game like Radz does from time to time. Both were (are) great in their prime, but I'd still take Alex. Hear-hear Krammer, even past him prime in 94 Valentine was one of the best flank-mids we've ever had. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 quote:Originally posted by matthew . I'd rather have Bunbury than Radzinski in their primes. Laugh if you want, but I'm serious. Bunbury was always committed. He was good in the air, I think his touch was better than Radz and he had pace. Not as fast as Radz, but he was more versatile. Radz is a poacher, but Bunbury rarely if ever disappeared from a game like Radz does from time to time. Both were (are) great in their prime, but I'd still take Alex. Although Radzinski is argueably a technically better striker than Alex, I would take Alex in my squad any day over Rad. Bunbury was totally committed to Canada and always showed, even though he was consistently one of the top strikers in Portugal. I would say that he's the best striker Canada has ever had, and it's a shame he is not our all-time leading goal-scorer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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