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Yallop wants MLS in Canada


strobe_z

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May-June-July-August-September-October

University soccer has its regular season run till Halloween (and the nationals after that), so a pro league playing until October is definitely feasible. Add preseason to that and you're still only at 7 months...

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quote:Originally posted by ted

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OK, I'll have a go.

Let's deal first with your questionable assumptions.

Assumption 1) "the league would require attendences in the 10,000 range minimum"

This is false.

To generate sufficient revenue to maintain an annual budget for each team of $1M (my estimate) you need to average 100,000 spectators over the course of the season at an average price of $10. To make your math work they would only play 10 games in a season. That would not even cover the league games required to complete the season I would suggest that 20 games per season is more accurate and using the numbers I have stated that would require an average of 5,000 per game.

But what difference does it make. You can make a league work with 1000 if you really wanted to. But what kind of operation will it be. Will it be strong enough to prepare players for competive football or international football. Will it be able to showcase the kind of talent that more people will want to pay to see? My answer is NO. plus we already have this. Its called the CPSL. would it really be sufficient to just take 5-7 teams from this league and move them to other towns accross canada. Would it be that simple? plus what does it really acomplish by just moving a team from town A to town B even if town B is in a another province.

quote:Originally posted by ted

Of course we have not even included sponsorship monies (or heaven forbid transfer fees) as contributing to the $1M annual budget of the team. Therefore my personal estimate for the survival of a team would be closer to an average of 3,500 per game.

Assumption 2) "a far longer schedule than the current A-league."

How much longer?

The A-League plays from April - September. How much longer do you think they should, and more importantly, could play outdoors in Canada?

I think that we should extend the season so that the final of the league cup is played on the Thanksgiving weekend but I would not try to start the season any earlier as they already have to train in March for an April start to the schedule.

Of course, the schedule length then comes back to your first assumption above and a new question then arises. How many competitive games do you want to see them play over a season?

I think around 20+ is good and I would certainly like to see a few more added by playing in the CONCACAF Champions league for the league champions and league cup winners.

But given the limitations of our climate and the competition from other sports we cannot realisticly, in my opinion of course, go beyond 6.5 months.

Assumption 3) "8 cities to build appropriate sized facilities"

We already have stadiums in more than eight cities that do already or could easily be brought up to an app. capacity of 5,000 (not the 10,000 number we have already dealt with above.) Eventually most would need upgrading or replacement but that does not have to be part of the start-up costs for the league.

In general I agree with your point that we must have more pro spots in Canada for our players. I disagree that MLS will provide those spots in the numbers you suggest (45).

In the meantime we have base to build on in the current A-League teams and frankly that is what we will have to work with for the next 5 - 10 years so we might as well embrace it and build on it. Of course, if we can keep the current teams alive and add just 3 more we suddenly have a viable 8 team circuit that can stay in the A-League as is, create a Cdn division or, oh my goodness, become a Cdn league.

But what kind of transfer fees could you possibly expect from operations of this level. Also, if soccer has trouble drawing investors now for clubs, why would it be any different by adding more canadian clubs and making the league or division exclusively canadian. We have right now only 2 of 5 clubs who are over the 5K in attendance how can we hope to atract investors and have more cnd clubs with that level of sucess? Plus even if you reach this concept called a canadian league, what is to prevent the one or two succesfull owner to take his/her team to an american league. Or if the MLS shows an interest do you think that there will anything to stop them?

I don't understand the significance, in the big picture, of setting up a league on the basis strictly of a line on a map of the world denoted as the canadian boundary. Clubs are run by private interest and they don't pay attention to borders on map. They will make decisions based on what is in the best interest of their clubs and investors/shareholders. If an american club is good draw in his market, why would he want to play them less in favour of another canadian team 1000 miles away.

Ultimately all we really care about is the best possible opportunities for canadian in order to improve our sucess internationally without having to travel accross the pond. Who cares whether that opportunity mean playing against Chicago or Calgary. Its strong, successfull clubs that we need. the league setup is really secondary to this.

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Remember that Carlos Ruiz is making chicken scratch in the MLS. Decent players can be had quite cheaply, especially if they are young and trying to work their way up. So while one might talk about an average salary of $25,000-$35,000, the top 4-5 guys might be making $45-50,000 on average with the rest earning considerably less. I think you can get decent quality in that salary range. Of course, 8 stadiums condusive to gates of 5-6000 - or 8 communities that would attract 5-6000 fans - are another matter.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

... You can make a league work with 1000 if you really wanted to. But what kind of operation will it be. ...

Well that is the $64,000 question.

A $1M budget would allow players to be professionals in that at least during the season they would not have to work other jobs. Some would be paid well enough to live on their salary year round (if they can live on $35-$45K base salary.)

That is what I believe Canada could handle and it would allow for the greatest number of players to receive the greatest benefit.

quote:

But what kind of transfer fees could you possibly expect from operations of this level.

Certainly not a lot at first and there is no reason to aim beyond moderate fees but frankly at this point anything would be good.

quote:

Ultimately all we really care about is the best possible opportunities for canadian in order to improve our sucess internationally without having to travel accross the pond. Who cares whether that opportunity mean playing against Chicago or Calgary. Its strong, successfull clubs that we need. the league setup is really secondary to this.

Yep. I agree 100% with the first part. As for the last bit here I think the league setup can support the clubs or it cannot and I choose to advocate for a setup that actually supports the clubs. Having examinded the options I cannot find any advantage to having one MLS team. Three teams which work closely with regional "feeder" leagues actually might be attractive but I cannot see it happening.

Right now there are, what, 12 actual or approved teams for play in 2005 in the MLS. As an American league concerned for investors bottom line (not sporting benefit) why would they choose markets so much smaller and less lucrative in Vancouver and Montreal over American ones?

I keep seeing people arguing business sense for MLS to come to Canada but it makes no good business sense to go anywhere but T.O. untill all the appropriate U.S. markets are engaged.

MLS has not actually expanded in several years (they dropped two teams remember). Their rate of expansion cannot possibly be greater than one team/year on average over the next decade. If there are not ten U.S. markets that are a better business case for MLS than Montreal and Vancouver I will kiss LOSF's behind.

So what do we do for the next ten+ years? We support the A-League teams and encourage new ones, we try to get them to think collectively for their own marketing and promotions and see where we are in a few years.

Sheesh, I am not even saying we should try for a new all-Canadian league. However, what would benefit our players most is also something that might become a new all-Canadian league when the time is right.

Mostly I am concerned that an MLS team in Toronto would retard the development of the pro game in Canada unless very carefully handled. Given the history of pro-clubs in Canada I am not at all confident they would take the care needed.

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quote:Originally posted by ted

If there are not ten U.S. markets that are a better business case for MLS than Montreal and Vancouver I will kiss LOSF's behind.

Given that any business case would also include capacity to draw fans and a suitable stadium; given that Vancouver is probably still one of the top 3 soccer markets north of the rio grande; and given that there is at least discussion of a new stadium; and further given that the Whitecaps owner has the financial resources that any MLS owner wqould need, you may want to amend this list. If I were MLS, I'd want Vancouver as much as Toronto. Vancouver, unlike any 10 US cities that the MLS is not currently in, is the most certain in terms of viability IMO.

Overall, I agree with your assessment. I don't see a single MLS team in Toronto as good for much beyond the salaries of 15 potential B teamers. I see far more harm than good coming out of it for the rest of Canada. But, I've flogged that one to death.

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

I can't see how an MLS team could "retard" things worse than what we've done to ourselves in the last 20 years since the NASL folded.

Fair comment.

What concerns me is the future. With limited money and media interest in soccer in Canada an MLS team would suck up everything that might have been shared around between the current A-League teams. You think the A-League gets little coverage now? It will get no national coverage if an MLS team comes to Canada.

For example, there is usually space for one soccer story in the local paper, maybe two. Usually the prioroty seems to be: 1) Latest soccer disaster; 2) EPL; 3) Cdn National Team; 4) Serie A; 5) A-League.

The same goes for money. How much is Tim Horton's or Canadian Tire going to spend on an A-League (or lower) team when they can get on board with FC Toronto? What dollars that might have sustained and supported five teams will be swallowed up by a single team that provides full-time spots for 15 players (18 man roster - 3 "internationals: sorry but they will NOT field an all-Canadian team if they see any competitive edge to using 3 non-Cdn players.)

So while we (as in the soccer community in Canada) have indeed done damage to the game I still feel it is possible for this ideas to hold back overall development of the pro game in Canada.

Hey, maybe they would find a way to make the MLS team cooperate with and support the A-League teams but as has been shown so many times in Canada, soccer organizations don't play well together.

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quote:What concerns me is the future. With limited money and media interest in soccer in Canada an MLS team would suck up everything that might have been shared around between the current A-League teams. You think the A-League gets little coverage now? It will get no national coverage if an MLS team comes to Canada.

For example, there is usually space for one soccer story in the local paper, maybe two. Usually the prioroty seems to be: 1) Latest soccer disaster; 2) EPL; 3) Cdn National Team; 4) Serie A; 5) A-League.

The same goes for money. How much is Tim Horton's or Canadian Tire going to spend on an A-League (or lower) team when they can get on board with FC Toronto? What dollars that might have sustained and supported five teams will be swallowed up by a single team that provides full-time spots for 15 players (18 man roster - 3 "internationals: sorry but they will NOT field an all-Canadian team if they see any competitive edge to using 3 non-Cdn players.)

Agree with Ted on this. Especially about the amount of space for soccer stories in the local paper. We are very lucky here in Montreal because the Impact are winning and there is coverage by the three local papers. It wasn't always the case. In 2001(Impact had a horrible season), the Gazette(English Daily) sent a reporter to about half the games. La Presse and the Journal de Montreal(French dailies) to 3 or 4 games each. What will happen if the Impact have losing seasons in the future is anyone's guess. Most likely attendance will go back to averaging 3,000-4,000. Once this happens the dailies will start skipping games. If MLS has a team in Toronto, certainly the Gazette will have many wire stories about that team and less about the local team. We have a guy who does a soccer column in the Gazette once a week (He is certainly not Montreal-based)right now who NEVER mentions the A-league. Maybe one time out of 100 he will mention the National team. It is always EPL, La Liga, Serie A, etc.

quote:neither can I. I never heard anyone say that the NASL was bad for soccer in canada.

There was no other competing league in Canada at the time(I don't count the semi-pro National Soccer League)so all the coverage was about the Canadian NASL teams. When the first CPSL started in 1983, it went head to head against the NASL. Result: The CPSL folded in two months.

I don't have a solution to where Canadian soccer should be heading. I just hope that we can have strong teams across the country and not have all the best players in one team. For now, the A-league is our best option.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

neither can I. I never heard anyone say that the NASL was bad for soccer in canada.

Well duh. There were no other pro-teams in Canada at the time the NASL was around that could be hurt by NASL teams, thus being bad for PRO soccer in Canada.

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Does the MLS hurt the Rochester team? I mean surely the local papers must only carry AP stories on the MLS in favour of Rhino tales?

Does the NHL hurt Jr Major Hockey? Ottawa has an NHL and 2 of the top JR franchises in Canada.

The CPSL folded for the same reasons as the Avaitors did. Inter-Montreal was drawing 5-6 thousand a game with Gordon Hill and being paid NASL money. The owners were dumbasses. The NASL has nothing to do with that league dying. Stupid hopeless romatics killed that sucker.

And are you saying an MLS team in TO would really kill the 86er's or the Imapct. That those franchises are that fragile? Edmonton and Calgary killed themselves without an MLS team.

Why so scared?

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