Yallop wants MLS in Canada

[intrepid_]

I don't think an MLS team in Toronto would have a negative effect on the support of Vancouver or Montreal. If anything, it might even spur it on, with these cities supporting their A-League teams and thus proving that they should be considered for MLS (similar to Rochester, and what happened with the CFL in Baltimore).

Where a Toronto MLS team could hurt Canadian soccer is in places like Edmonton and Calgary (whose A-league teams are far from established), and places like Ottawa, Winnipeg and Quebec (who could attract the A-league in the future). These markets would definitely be less receptive to A-league teams that they see as minor league to what is going on in Toronto.

Obviously a 7-8 team pan-Canadian league is ideal, but it's a pipe dream until we have non-gargantuan stadiums and better organizers than those CUSL charlatans.

BTW - does anyone have a link to the infamous KPMG report?

[DarnCherry]

quote:If anything, it might even spur it on, with these cities supporting their A-League teams and thus proving that they should be considered for MLS (similar to Rochester, and what happened with the CFL in Baltimore).

How would supporting Montreal and Vancouver even better than we do now get us any closer to an MLS franchise? It that were the case MLS would be talking about Vancouver or Montreal as potential franchises as both teams sure as hell support the teams they have now a hell of a lot better than Toronto does.

MLS in Toronto will hurt attendance in Vancouver and Montreal. Why? There are fans now who attend because it is the top flight in Canadian soccer. They may wish that the teams they support are in MLS but because there are no Canadian teams in the league they'll support the highest level Canada has to offer. Toronto getting MLS will change that and many will say "hell I'm not bothering with the A-League, I'll wait for MLS". For anyone who thinks thats a farfetched scenario, remember the drop in Argos attendance when Toronto thought they were going to get an NFL team. Fans stayed home hoping the Argos would die and waiting for NFL to arrive.

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by intrepid_

No Canadian team has folded since Quebec and Winnipeg,

That's what I mean. I must be showing my age.

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by intrepid_

BTW - does anyone have a link to the infamous KPMG report?

For some reason the CSA has NOT included it on it's list of documents (such as the WC Feasibility study by Deloitte and touche)

at:

Here is the subsequent CUSL proposal that came after though:

http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/CUSLProposal.pdf

Given that they described the results of the KPMG report "disappointing" . it is not surprising that the CSA has tried to bury it.

[An Observer]

I have a written at length on this board before about this issue. But I will make a few remarks again (as no one has ever answered some of my major concerns about a Canadian league).

First, i would argue that in theory the best way to develop Canadain talent would be a minimum 8 team full-time Canadian league. But to be full-time, the league would require attendences in the 10,000 range minimum and to have a far longer schedule than the current A-league. This is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE in the next 10 years or even 20 years. It would require at least 8 deep pocket owners, a commitment from corporate canada, a lucrative tv deal, 8 cities to build appropriate sized facilities (most CFL facilities are far too large). Its a complete and absolute impossibility and anyone who argues for such a league know does not have a clue.

Second, you could possibly move from the current situation (2 solid A-league sides, 3 crap A-league sides) to a better situation with 8 solid franchises over the next maybe 10 years but how do you do that? You will need to piggy back on the back of the A-league and play second tier US cities like Virginia Beach and Charleston (so of course, our destiny is already tied to the US!). And even if we can get to 8 to 10 teams in 10 years....and that is a huge maybe as we only have 2 solid frachises now and one averages about 9000 and the other what 4000 (long way away from 8 that average 10000 needed for full-time football). This league will always be a poor cousin to the MLS. So we will be on a continent where our best players will think we are playing in a second tier league on our own continent. And that my friend is the best case scenario....which I think is extremely unlikely. More likely would be us moving along with about 5 to 9 A-league sides with a few well supported ones, and a few on the verge of extinction. This would provide no real firm means of support for the development of our players.

Enter option three. MLS expands to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. What does that do? It immediately provides a full-time league for Canadian players to play in and aspire to play in. The Jeff Clarke's, Robbie Arristodemeo's, and Nick Dasovic's would have a league where they could develop from soccer as a part-time profession to one where they would have played full-time and their talent not wasted. This immediatley would bring corporate dollars into the sport, it would bring a national television contract and it would raise the profile of soccer immeasurably. For the fan in Saskatoon or Moncton, it would bring Canadian soccer teams and players onto TV to watch. For the player, it would bring a league to aspire to.

For the A-league teams in Calgary and Edmonton, my opinion on them and other possible Canadian cities is that they need facilities that are in the 5,000 to 10,000 range to play in before they ever can be even considered possible soccer towns. With the profile raised of soccer in Canada by the MLS in general, I see no reason why these towns would not embrace "minor league" soccer anymore than why they would not embrace "minor league" baseball or hockey. To get 3,000 to 5,000 out to see the next soccer stars who would be development sides playing in a competitive North American league would seem as achievable as it is now to play in the current second tier A-league. If there comes a point where some of them grow (like a Rochester) to support a team in the MLS, so be it. They can make the leap with their fan base gained from the A-league.

Such a structure would still allow the top 30 or so players to play in the top leagues in Europe but we would then have the next 45 top players playing at home (including the Rob Friends, Ryan Thompson's etc). This can only be good for Canadian football.

The other two scenarios are pipe dreams and are only people thinking with their hearts and not their minds.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by intrepid_

I don't think an MLS team in Toronto would have a negative effect on the support of Vancouver or Montreal. If anything, it might even spur it on, with these cities supporting their A-League teams and thus proving that they should be considered for MLS (similar to Rochester, and what happened with the CFL in Baltimore).

Where a Toronto MLS team could hurt Canadian soccer is in places like Edmonton and Calgary (whose A-league teams are far from established), and places like Ottawa, Winnipeg and Quebec (who could attract the A-league in the future). These markets would definitely be less receptive to A-league teams that they see as minor league to what is going on in Toronto.

Obviously a 7-8 team pan-Canadian league is ideal, but it's a pipe dream until we have non-gargantuan stadiums and better organizers than those CUSL charlatans.

BTW - does anyone have a link to the infamous KPMG report?

very well put thanks .... ANyone who ever believed in that stupid CUSL thing or the viability or usefullness ( from a big picture point of view) of a 10-12 team pan canadian league is very naive ( Believe me, I am being very polite in the use of that adjective). If it were, we would have similar leagues for baseball and basketball already.

[G-Man]

I wrote this in another topic....

Having 7-9 A-league teams in Canada does nothing for developing good players. Too many borderline hacks get to pay. It's a waste of resources. And I would go farther and say what is happening in Edmonton and Calgary a-la gate- does more harm to the game. Soccer is being perceived as being less popular than pro team handball.

So here I go. I open myself up to scorn:

G-mans pyramid of play to get Canada into the TOP 30

10 PDL teams across Canada (All players must be U-23)with budgets of 100K a year. It could be a CPDL. 2 MLS teams. Montreal and Vancouver feeding off of the 10 PDL teams. 1 national team pulling players from European teams and the 2 MLS teams.

And all PDL team would be require to run year round youth programs coached by A or B level coaches.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

I wrote this in another topic....

Having 7-9 A-league teams in Canada does nothing for developing good players. Too many borderline hacks get to pay. It's a waste of resources. And I would go farther and say what is happening in Edmonton and Calgary a-la gate- does more harm to the game. Soccer is being perceived as being less popular than pro team handball.

Yes Spot on. In the past, I have argued at so much lenght as to why the MLS is the best option and why the Pan Can concept is such idiocy. As I watch arguments of those other who also favour the MLS idea, I am amazed at the amount of unanimity that I find in the aguments that I find in teh points raised of those on the same side. I too have made the same argument that, at present, the quality of such a league would be so poor that the talented canadians who have potential would still skip it in favour of of the European youth acadamies because following this pan-can, CUSL, CSL concept would hinder their development. So here is another advantage of the MLS option: By keeping these youth players here, there would be a lesser likelyhood of defections ( eg>; Hargreaves, possibly hughes.. etc).

[Impact supporter]

quote:Originally posted by Bxl Boy

Never forget American traditionnal leagues are the best in the world of sports barely played elsewhere

The MLS is an ordinary championship of a sport played in the whole world

For the rest, I agree with those who are against a canadian team in there

In 5 years, they will cry because "they are forced to pay players in US $"

The best way (but it will never happen) is to divide USA and Canada in zones

Like northeast for example with NY, Montreal, Boston, Toronto,...

Make something between 8 and 16 zones, with a regular competition (no long travel, no huge costs)

Champions and runner ups could be qualified for a north american cup in the model of the european cups

I know we talked about this before but I still think it seems more practical to divide North America into 4 zones:

North (New York, Montreal, Boston)

West (Vancouver, Portland, Calgary, Seattle, Los Angeles, Arizona, Colorado)

Central(Winnipeg, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Kansas City)

South (Miami, Dallas, Atlanta)

with three divisions (Division 1, 2, 3)

Just a thought.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

I have a written at length on this board before about this issue. But I will make a few remarks again (as no one has ever answered some of my major concerns about a Canadian league).

First, i would argue that in theory the best way to develop Canadain talent would be a minimum 8 team full-time Canadian league. But to be full-time, the league would require attendences in the 10,000 range minimum and to have a far longer schedule than the current A-league. This is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE in the next 10 years or even 20 years. It would require at least 8 deep pocket owners, a commitment from corporate canada, a lucrative tv deal, 8 cities to build appropriate sized facilities (most CFL facilities are far too large). Its a complete and absolute impossibility and anyone who argues for such a league know does not have a clue.

OK, I'll have a go.

Let's deal first with your questionable assumptions.

Assumption 1) "the league would require attendences in the 10,000 range minimum"

This is false.

To generate sufficient revenue to maintain an annual budget for each team of $1M (my estimate) you need to average 100,000 spectators over the course of the season at an average price of $10. To make your math work they would only play 10 games in a season. That would not even cover the league games required to complete the season (home and away against seven opponents is a minimum of 14 games). That does not include any other games which could and should be arranged (ie: cup ties, international friendlies, pre-season tournaments.)

I would suggest that 20 games per season is more accurate and using the numbers I have stated that would require an average of 5,000 per game.

Of course we have not even included sponsorship monies (or heaven forbid transfer fees) as contributing to the $1M annual budget of the team. Therefore my personal estimate for the survival of a team would be closer to an average of 3,500 per game.

Assumption 2) "a far longer schedule than the current A-league."

How much longer?

The A-League plays from April - September. How much longer do you think they should, and more importantly, could play outdoors in Canada?

I think that we should extend the season so that the final of the league cup is played on the Thanksgiving weekend but I would not try to start the season any earlier as they already have to train in March for an April start to the schedule.

Of course, the schedule length then comes back to your first assumption above and a new question then arises. How many competitive games do you want to see them play over a season?

I think around 20+ is good and I would certainly like to see a few more added by playing in the CONCACAF Champions league for the league champions and league cup winners.

But given the limitations of our climate and the competition from other sports we cannot realisticly, in my opinion of course, go beyond 6.5 months.

Assumption 3) "8 cities to build appropriate sized facilities"

We already have stadiums in more than eight cities that do already or could easily be brought up to an app. capacity of 5,000 (not the 10,000 number we have already dealt with above.) Eventually most would need upgrading or replacement but that does not have to be part of the start-up costs for the league.

In general I agree with your point that we must have more pro spots in Canada for our players. I disagree that MLS will provide those spots in the numbers you suggest (45).

Realistically MLS MIGHT be in Toronto in 2007 when the stadium is done. I do not believe that Vancouver would be a possibility for at least 2 years after that even IF they finished a stadium by then. One only has to look at the slowness of the MLS expansion in the US to see that there is a long line of US cities with better facilities today that are still waiting. Montreal has as much chance as Vancouver but has shown no sign of a big spender like Kerfoot or a CSA/FIFA to push a stadium through.

In the meantime we have base to build on in the current A-League teams and frankly that is what we will have to work with for the next 5 - 10 years so we might as well embrace it and build on it. Of course, if we can keep the current teams alive and add just 3 more we suddenly have a viable 8 team circuit that can stay in the A-League as is, create a Cdn division or, oh my goodness, become a Cdn league.

But then I was one of the 'stupid charlatons' who contributed to the CUSL plan.

[G-Man]

Do we really have the talent for 8 A-league teams? I mean lets look at Ottawa where I live. There's no way right now that you could find 4 players of that caliber right now. So what good would it do the Canadian game to field an Ottawa team with 15 imports, much like the Wizards did playing in a much lower league? Maybe when the Fury Super Y league U-17 team hits of age in 3 years you might have the talent to field a decent PDL team. Have them play there, but even then you might only have 5 off of that PDL team good enough for MLS or A-league.

We need to develop talent first. The Whitecaps and Lynx have Super Y youth programs. But what did the other A-league teams do for its local players? Why are they not building youth academies? Crap Cardiff City even has one.

If we're going to win the good fight, I think it will take time. You can't do as they did in Edmonton and say build it and they will come. You need people committed to 5-year plans. We need people willing to develop the game slowly and within finical reason.

And most importantly we must find the 3500 willing to pay 10 bucks 10 times a year.

When you dream big you usually fall hard. We all want to this work. We just can't living on impoosible dreams anymore. The CSL was done before- it lasted what- 3 years.

[DarnCherry]

G-Man really thinks lowly of Canada to think we can't stock 8 A-League teams with A-League calibre players. Not only that but each team is allowed a certain limit of foreigners.

Lastly, how sick am I hearing about how a Canadian league or a better number of Canadian teams in the A-League will do nothing to develop players. Once again why is everything about developing players? How about developing professional clubs for locals who can't get excited by watching soccer on the TV played by foreigners in foreign countries?

[DarnCherry]

quote:West (Vancouver, Portland, Calgary, Seattle, Los Angeles, Arizona, Colorado)

Thats one hell of a huge zone.

[Alberto7]

One point that no one had raised: Does MLS really want to expand to Canada? I don't think so. MLS was started to develop American soccer players for the US national team(A first division league was one of the conditions for the USA to host the World Cup in 1994). Why would the USSF allow a team stocked with Canadians when they could put a new team in Miami or Oklahoma or San Diego and develop more young American prospects? For all the talk from the MLS Commish about Toronto being a possibility, his hands are tied by the 4 or 5 owners who run MLS and the USSF. In any case, there are too many American cities that will be considered well before Toronto (Rochester, Seattle, Oklahoma City, etc.)

BTW anyone thinking that Chivas USA will have mostly non-americans is dead wrong. They will certainly have some Mexicans on the team but the bulk of the team will be Americans(Spanish speaking Americans I'm sure, but Americans nonetheless).

[Daniel]

As for level of talent in Canada and number of adequate players:

-A league finds its talent: Look at MLS in 1996 and look at them today; the Americans playing in the league are much more solid than they were. Look at the level of football players in Québec since the Alouettes came back in 1996. University ball has seen a huge boom because the Alouettes make young players dream. The A-League doesn't because no one perceives it as being credible. A Canadian league would probably have a head office, a TV contract (all Canadian teams this time) and major sponsors (Tide, CIBC, whatever) that would make it more credible than the office-in-a-shoe-box A-League.

-The talent is here, just wasted. Up until around 16, there are tons of great young talented players in Canada but most give up by that age (including some of the best, usually poorer) because they don't see a future in soccer. Many dream of Real Madrid but none of the Impact. For a local youth, you have a better chance of getting to RM by the Impact than by not doing anything (most don't have agents and don't have a clue on how to get trials or national team selection). An LSEQ select team defeated Puerto Rico 2-1 last week in Montréal...

[Pony]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Do we really have the talent for 8 A-league teams? I mean lets look at Ottawa where I live. There's no way right now that you could find 4 players of that caliber right now. So what good would it do the Canadian game to field an Ottawa team with 15 imports, much like the Wizards did playing in a much lower league? Maybe when the Fury Super Y league U-17 team hits of age in 3 years you might have the talent to field a decent PDL team. Have them play there, but even then you might only have 5 off of that PDL team good enough for MLS or A-league.

We need to develop talent first.

I have my own take on 'the case study' that is Ottawa

Hate to bust your theory, but in the first two years that the wizards exsited the team was mainly Ottawa based guys. Furthermore most of those guys still play in Ottawa (Including the league MVP). Even last year there were only 6 imports that I can count.

Now, I'm NOT saying thats the basis for a pro team, just that its not inconcievable to think a small market like Ottawa can produce enough local talent to start a franchise.

As far as all the PDL comments go, I will say this. I think most people are forgeting that the PDL is a league designed for University players to have higher competition during the summer while they are away from school. In that regard, it is definetly concievable for there to exist 10 PDL teams in Canada (Ottawa,Toronto,Kingston, Halifax, Kitchener, Hamilton, Montreal all have 2 or more succesful Collegiate programs to draw from...sorry if I forgot anyone).

If the raison d'etre of such a program would be to develop Uni players into future pro's, then I think you are onto something.

Problem is that PDL players are not supposed to be on salary.

Therefore I don't think such a program would convince the DeGuzman and Hargraves of the world to stay in Canada to play for 3 months out of the year while they wait to get 'drafted.'

Still, this (10 PDL, 3 MLS, hopefully some A-League survivors) is still the most sustainable idea that has come across this board in long time.

P

[WhitecapsFCFan]

quote:Originally posted by ted

Assumption 1) "the league would require attendences in the 10,000 range minimum"

This is false.

To generate sufficient revenue to maintain an annual budget for each team of $1M (my estimate) you need to average 100,000 spectators over the course of the season at an average price of $10. To make your math work they would only play 10 games in a season. That would not even cover the league games required to complete the season (home and away against seven opponents is a minimum of 14 games). That does not include any other games which could and should be arranged (ie: cup ties, international friendlies, pre-season tournaments.)

I would suggest that 20 games per season is more accurate and using the numbers I have stated that would require an average of 5,000 per game.

Of course we have not even included sponsorship monies (or heaven forbid transfer fees) as contributing to the $1M annual budget of the team. Therefore my personal estimate for the survival of a team would be closer to an average of 3,500 per game.

Uhh....Ted...are you saying 20 home games? 7 league games and 13 others?

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by Alberto7

One point that no one had raised: Does MLS really want to expand to Canada? I don't think so. MLS was started to develop American soccer players for the US national team(A first division league was one of the conditions for the USA to host the World Cup in 1994). Why would the USSF allow a team stocked with Canadians when they could put a new team in Miami or Oklahoma or San Diego and develop more young American prospects? For all the talk from the MLS Commish about Toronto being a possibility, his hands are tied by the 4 or 5 owners who run MLS and the USSF. In any case, there are too many American cities that will be considered well before Toronto (Rochester, Seattle, Oklahoma City, etc.)

According to the article Frank says there is interest on behalf of MLS, and he is certainly more connected to the movers and shakers in that league than any of us could ever hope to be.

Does that mean it will happen? Not necessarily because talk, ultimately, is pretty cheap.

As for most logical places in the US where teams could be located, they all lack one important thing: interested, deep-pocketed investors. Seattle was pipped by Salt Lake for that very reason. Seattle wanted in, MLS wanted Seattle. Salt Lake had the money which was more than enough to woo MLS to their side.

[Gordon]

My preferred option is the Canadian league. Not saying that is the most realistic, just preferred. In terms of the attendance, in an 8 team league, I figure you will have to average 6400 per game to get to the magic $1 million in revenue (which seems pretty realisitc to me - the million is realistic I mean). I assume that 10% of the revenue comes from non-gate revenue and a 28 game schedule (each side 2 home 2 away)giving 14 gates of 6400x$10 = 14x$64000 = $896,000. Obviously, any other revenue, or marginally higher ticket prices will effect the required attendance numbers downwards. I think you could do the 28 games in 5 months easily enough, with only a few weeks of more than one game per week required (although travel may result in more for financial reasons)

In terms of the talent, I think it would develop. Would the Canadian League ever be as good as MLS? Probably not. But the Dutch League will not ever be as good as the Bundesliga top to bottom either. The level of play will improve annually, and if Scandinavian countries with 1/2 or less of Canada's population can stock reasonably decent leagues, I don't see why Canada can not also. I think we have enough Youth players, and that players training in a professional environment will continue to improve - this is in effect what happened in MLS.

Now, the question as to whether 8 owners would step forward, or whether the economics can work are legit, although I think 5-6 A-league is better than 2 MLS and some PDL in terms of the domestic soccer scene.

[An Observer]

Ted,

I will admit that I haven't done the math but I find it quite difficult to believe you can have a full-time Canadian league with only an average of 5,000 fans per game. I don't have the time to do the math, but I would simply suggest that Montreal doens't seem to be able to provide full-time salaries with about over 8,000 in attendance and nor does Vancouver with I guess about 4,000. If you look at the MLS, there attendances are in the low teens and their salary levels are very low beyond the top 4 or 5 per team. Moreover, I doubt a league with 5,000 fan average is going to get much of a national TV deal or corporate sponsorship. 5,000 attendances may work in Scandinavia where they are travelling by bus and not staying anywhere over night, but not in Canada with the long distances.

[sstackho]

Sports

John MacKinnon

Bid to keep Canada's soccer talent at home gets a boost: Hosting 2007 world youth championship beneficial: senior men's coach

John MacKinnon

The Edmonton Journal

934 words

11 August 2004

Edmonton Journal

Final

D1 / Front

English

Copyright © 2004 Edmonton Journal

EDMONTON

EDMONTON - The best kids on earth are coming here in 2007 to play in the second biggest soccer championship in the world. But the long-term trick for Canada is to keep more of them playing at home.

That's one of the goals Frank Yallop has set in his rookie year as head coach of Canada's national senior men's side. He's hoping that Canada's hosting of the 2007 FIFA (Federation Internationale de Football Association) World Youth Championship can, like the 2002 Women's Under-19 World Cup, deliver another jolt of soccer momentum.

Edmonton's reward for the stunning success of the women's tournament is likely host honours for the championship game of the 2007 youth tournament, details of which were announced Tuesday.

"It's going to get us some interest and get some people on board," Yallop said of the tournament, second in size only to the men's World Cup. "I think, at some point, it's going to grow the game and that's a good thing."

It's unclear how many of the 52 matches involving 24 teams to be played over three weeks in July will be held at Commonwealth Stadium. About 15 are slated for a new facility on the downtown Toronto site of old Varsity Stadium. There will also be matches in Montreal and Ottawa, and possibly Vancouver, Hamilton, Winnipeg and Calgary.

The tournament will enable young talents such as Asmir Begovic, a 17-year-old goalkeeper from Edmonton playing in Portsmouth's youth system in England, to showcase his ability at a world championship in his home country -- no small thing.

Yallop, who twice coached the Major League Soccer's San Jose Earthquakes to that league's championship, believes one key element missing in Canada's development system is one or even three Canadian-based teams in that circuit, so Begovic and others can begin their pro careers closer to home.

Which is the age-old vicious cycle in Canadian soccer. Yes, we need pro teams, if not a credible pro league. That's a long-term solution. Sadly, it has also been the longstanding problem, as various teams and leagues have been beset with lack of sustainable fan interest, financial woes, on and on.

It may well be that success in Canadian pro soccer means thinking big, or at least bigger than the A-League, which the Major League Soccer most assuredly is. In a city where the financial wounds incurred from the A-League's Aviators remain painfully raw, musing about an MLS team might not seem the obvious next step right now.

But with the world youth championship now in place, cause and effect may fall nicely into place to help break the cycle. As follows: landing the 2007 tournament was key to securing $35 million in federal and provincial funding for the downtown Toronto stadium, where the CFL's Argonauts and the University of Toronto football teams will play.

That stadium is the appropriate capacity for an MLS team (25,000) and Yallop, 2001 MSL coach of the year, says the league is amenable to permitting a Canadian team to field a roster with 15 Canadians and three imports. Teams in that league are composed of 15 Americans and three imports and the salary budget of the teams is $1.7 million US, so the financial incentive is clearly there.

"One of the things I keep saying is that we need to get a Canadian team into that league," Yallop said. "Because 15 players would be playing in Canada.

"Not every kid wants to go live in Norway at 17 years old. They're Canadian. We need a dream here (North America). We need a superstar Canadian playing here."

A Toronto-based MLS team would mean Canadian versions of Freddy Adu, the 14-year-old phenom and role model who signed with D.C. United in Washington, would have the option of going pro without leaving home. They'd also have the financial incentive to stay with a sport that boasts 900,000 playing members in Canada, but precious few elite players, virtually all of whom must leave Canada to pursue careers.

Meanwhile, the bulk of the U.S. world cup men's team comprises MLS players, which means it's easier to assemble as a national team for friendly matches, World Cup qualifiers and tournaments.

"Right now, it's a longshot for Canada because we're (players) so spread out," Yallop said.

"If there's three (MLS) teams you've got 45 players definitely and, with development players, you'd have 60 Canadians playing professional.

"We're talking three, four years down the road, but we've got to start it now, so that by 2010 (World Cup) whoever the coach is, whether it's me or the next guy, you've got a chance."

Canada plays Honduras in a men's World Cup qualifier at Commonwealth Sept. 4, so Yallop's long-term vision doesn't apply there. Still, he believes Canada has a chance. Down the road, he likes Canada's chances better if a youth tournament and a new stadium equals a major pro team in Canada.

jmackinnon@thejournal.canwest.com

[Andrew W]

I just wanted to expand on what Gordon was saying about a team with $1 million in revenue. With an 18-man roster at an average of $35,000 per season it means $630,000 is tied up in player payroll. That only leaves $360,000 for facility rental, business operations, soccer operations, insurance and team marketing. Of course, this is all before factoring in any league-wide revenues such as licensed products and league-wide sponsors.

Also understand this is all before addressing the travel issue, truly the biggest obstacle to a national league. The only way this works is an in-kind sponsorship agreement with WestJet of Air Canada. They give you low-rate travel and they are a premium sponsor of the league.

As for a television contract you will not get one that pays the league for the rights. The league would have to pay for television through sponsors they solicit; much like how Radio Shack, Honda and Sierra Mist sponsor MLS broadcasts. With that sort of set-up you'll get a broadcaster. The CBL was able to sucker The Score into broadcasting games, after all.

But, most important would be showing staying power. These teams would have to be willing to gut it out in each market to show the league is serious. Nomadic teams, folding franchises or expanding too fast will kill any league. MLS is just now crawling out of its contraction nightmare, where it swallowed two franchises up that really were suffering no worse than any of the others. However finding investors with this kind of commitment and fortitude would be nearly impossible. And as we know with the media in most cities, they would be sitting there with pencils sharpened ready to bang out the "told you pro soccer won't work here" article.

I find it quite interesting to guess at what it may take.

[intrepid_]

<pipedream>

I've been wishfully thinking a lot recently about the viability of a Canadian league.

As has previously been stated, the absolute maximum length of a Canadian season would be 6.5 months. Sure, you might be able to stretch it out a little bit longer, but the fans won't show up before May and after September. Realistically, the best Canada could really hope for at first is an A-League type season of 5.5 months or so (including playoffs). Make no mistake, the quality of pay and play would have to be commensurate with the A-league - they wouldn't be averaging $35,000 salaries, maybe averaging $25,000 for starters and half that for subs. Teams could realistically be operated at $1.1-1.2 million, even with cross-country travel.

A lack of stadiums is one of the biggest issues - if a Canadian league was to be taken seriously it couldn't have teams playing out of the likes of McMahon. You'd be hardpressed to find seven quality venues - Montreal (CCR), Toronto (Varsity), Vancouver (Swangard)... after here it gets tricky. Playing out of football stadiums is a good way to ensure failure. Maybe Quebec (U of Laval), Ottawa (Revamped Keith Harris), Winnipeg (Winnipeg Soccer Complex) and, uh.... St. John's? (Revamped King George). How is St. John's going to support a professional soccer franchise? I have no idea, but they're the only ones with a suitable stadium. You really have to have at least 7 teams, or it really doesn't work. Since there are really only three solidified markets, there'd have to be serious revenue-sharing, or the smaller teams would fold left and right. In fact, you'd probably need joint ownership (I don't know how the existing A-league teams would agree to this, but assuming they do).

If any Canadian league was going to be viable, the main source of revenue would have to be gate receipts, unlike the ridiculous plan envisioned in the CUSL proposal. The top-3 teams could probably all bring in close to a million in gate receipts based on fifteen home dates + playoffs (Montreal and Toronto with higher capacity, but Vancouver with higher ticket prices). The other teams would probably be looking at more modest gate receipts of $250,000 - $500,000.

So with league expenditures at $9 million ($1.14 per team, $1.0 for central operations), somewhat optimistic operations only give $4.5 million in ticket revenue. Maybe bump that up to $5 million with concessions and merchandising. An optimistic, but attainable, goal of leaguewide corporate sponsorship would probably be $1.5 million.

But that's still a $2.5 million shortfall, even after a few optimistic assumptions (and only 7 teams - anymore would increase the shortfall). There won't be any TV revenue. So how do you meet the shortfall? Clearly there's only one way - an all-star classic. Similar to the Canada B v. Hearts/Millwall tournament, but on a grander scale. Invite two ChampionsWorld teams to play the Canadian all-stars in a 3-game series at Skydome. Why should a US promoter be raking in the cash from the Toronto soccer masses? Even after appearance fees and installing grass, there'd be a very sizable profit. Toronto will turn out at least 40,000 paying $50 to see two European teams. The Canadian all-stars might get pummelled, but I don't think they'd lose that badly. The more important thing is that you'd make a couple million to keep the league afloat.

</pipedream>

Don't hold your breath.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by WhitecapsFCFan

Uhh....Ted...are you saying 20 home games? 7 league games and 13 others?

Oh b***er me! Gotta get that coffee before I start typing.

I am thinking home and away twice but do I bother writing that down, nooooooo. [xx(]

Twice through the league: 14 games

Cup Ties (Open and league?): 2-6

International Friendlies (MLS, Euro): 2-3

CONCACAF CL: ??

The point being that I think we can easily find 20 dates to play in each city thus spreading the numbers around more realisitically than trying to find 10,000 people for a single league game.

[WhitecapsFCFan]

quote:Originally posted by ted

Oh b***er me! Gotta get that coffee before I start typing.

I am thinking home and away twice but do I bother writing that down, nooooooo. [xx(]

Twice through the league: 14 games

Cup Ties (Open and league?): 2-6

International Friendlies (MLS, Euro): 2-3

CONCACAF CL: ??

The point being that I think we can easily find 20 dates to play in each city thus spreading the numbers around more realisitically than trying to find 10,000 people for a single league game.

OK....now your math looks better.