Aviators-a new scenario with history

[laserk]

I want to offer up another scenario for the recent demise of the Aviators in Edmonton. It strikes me as odd that a successful group of businessmen could have put forward a business plan that failed so quickly and utterly. Despite some of the things written in the media the ownership group has proven business savvy and a history of being pretty good at what they do individually. Given their business track record how could this possibly have happened? I don't buy the argument that they didn't know A-League soccer or sport in general. Entertainment is entertainment and sport is sport. You can miscalculate somewhat, but this was on a grand scale compared to a simple miscalculation.

My theory is that they were victims of bad advice and listening only to what they wanted to hear. Recent posts have reiterated the need to build an A-League team brick by brick and build trust and loyalty in your fan base over time. The Edmonton group was led to believe they could short-circuit this process and their grandiose plans proved that.

I don't believe Ross Ongaro or Joe Petrone need to share in this debacle since they were mainly charged with the personnel and on-field operations of the Club. They were not a major part of the policy and financial decisions that plagued the Aviators from the outset since those in the end are the privilege of the ownership.

From my recall of the history of this Club, I believe their major blunder was hooking up with the Edmonton Minor Soccer Association (EMSA). In theory it was a great deal and should have produced the financial base that the fledgling team needed. The trouble was, it was a theory and not reality.

Edmonton Minor Soccer, taking credit for the recent successes of the big event U-19 girls and Team Canada Womens game that filled a lot of seats seemed like a credible choice. Those intimate with Edmonton youth soccer recognize that FIFA, a huge budget and big-name draws, along with a committed, excellent volunteer group that was only partially affiliated with Edmonton Minor Soccer were the real reasons for these soccer marketing coups in Edmonton.

What EMSA proposed was that cheap $15 season tickets for their 20.000+ members would provide the footing that the Aviators needed. These kids would then drag along their parents who would be captive to the $20 tickets for each double-header that the Aviator men & women played. At worst there would be some $300,000 in the kitty and a full-looking Commonwealth Stadium would generate the buzz to get the Club to the elite status they craved in this city, forgoing all the growing pains of sports teams.

In return EMSA had a list of things the Aviators could do for them to make their own Tier 1 and 2 program more competitive with the rival Edmonton Interdistrict Youth Soccer Association (EIYSA). These included restricting the cheap tickets to EMSA players, forming Aviators developmental teams where membership meant leaving EIYSA to go to EMSA, having a certain number of local players on the Aviators teams, running camps and clinics in conjunction with EMSA and so on. Still, not a bad deal for the Aviators.

The problem now was that EMSA couldn't deliver. The ownership group were forced to book Commonwealth in order to accommodate what they were led to believe would be massive crowds of kids and parents. This obviously never came into fruition. And to top it off they had now alienated the EIYSA players and parents…the Club members.

The EIYSA players & parents were used to soccer at a higher level. They were not just recreational players whose season was a couple of months. They had a real commitment to soccer and paid higher fees and spent much more on soccer and were generally more knowledgeable than the average rec player and parents. They knew what the A-League was and knew who Kurt Bosch, Ross Ongaro and other former Drillers were. I wouldn't say they exactly boycotted Aviator games, but given the circumstances there was no real push to go to them either.

The trouble with EIYSA though was the numbers of elite players was much smaller than recreational just by definition. They couldn't sell the numbers of season tickets that would pay a substantial part of the Aviator budget to their members. However, probably all of the local players on both the men's & women's Aviator teams were former EIYSA players of recent vintage with close ties to that group. Their local talent would likely come from this organization.

EIYSA could make no grandiose proclamations and like their own organization felt that the Aviators needed to build their base slowly with all the soccer organizations in Edmonton helping to establish them. This would include not only the recreational and elite youth organizations, but the Edmonton District Soccer Association (EDSA) as well which represents all the adult soccer in Edmonton. This group too was slighted, even though their numbers were as large as EMSA in the headlong rush to use children as bait to bring along adults to games and secure the $300,000 that was being dangled by EMSA.

Mario Charpentier, President of EMSA, is now protesting wildly that EMSA promised the Aviators nothing and that they were only charged with making the tickets available to their members. It seems somewhat likely that some promises were at least implied given the level of services the Aviators were giving EMSA exclusively. Why would the Aviators ignore the other soccer interests in Edmonton and even risk alienating them for nothing? The Aviators could have made low cost minor soccer passes available themselves if what Charpentier says is valid. There is more to this than EMSA is letting on and face-saving is now in progress big time in the City Of Champions.

Some of the zones in EMSA have been at odds with their leadership for some time now and only two of the zones endorsed the EMSA Aviators ticket program with the majority of zones either bowing out or leaving it as an individual's choice. They did reportedly manage to move some 8,000 passes, many though as part of their community soccer fees, but in reality these kids were not all that interested in watching soccer. The proof here is the despite having the passes they didn't go to the games. They like to play it recreationally, but they also enjoy hockey, baseball and other sports. Soccer is a small part of their yearly activity and as long as the cost is minimal to participate, they do so. Even if they are interested in using their passes, the cost to parents to attend what is basically a peripheral sport to them was seen as prohibitive.

So, the bottom line is that likely the ownership group was victimized by the rosy projections based on allying themselves with EMSA. They booked the huge facility based on even a small portion of the EMSA kids with parents attending. They put basically all their eggs in the EMSA basket and when that didn't work on day one they were pooched. There was no way for them to recover in time to save the franchise when they saw that EMSA alone couldn't deliver the numbers. They couldn't go anywhere because by hooking up with EMSA they had excluded the rest of Edmonton's paying soccer community.

There was also perhaps the perception that they were kind of a Mickey Mouse, kid-friendly organization and not the high-level competitive soccer team that they wanted to be and their adult pricing implied. Relying too heavily on promoting to children made them seem less of a professional team to the public that could afford their seats. In hindsight the reverse would probably have been better…promoting to Edmonton's serious Club and adult soccer community and having them introduce their rec playing kids to the pro game over time.

I could be wrong, but given the above it is likely.

[BC supporter]

Welcome to the board. This is an interesting analysis and, from my perspective as a total outsider, it seems quite logical. Appreciate you posting it.

[fishman]

A very good post, and one that echos many of the sentiments I have left here and at the Hangar.

I do not believe that any one thing led to the franchise's demise, but rather a multitude, all stemming from a very flawed business plan.

So, let's take a look at some of the crushing decisions...well, limit it to the most obvious - the decision to play at Commonwealth Stadium.

The reason to play out of Commonwealth was based on one or two things, or a combination thereof... (1) It provided the only venue to hold the anticipated crowds; (2) The desire to go "first class, with style, nothing second rate" (Wylie Stafford.

I will assume that the former is the real reason, as an organization whose driving mantra of "first class" would never had its news conference (unveiling the team roster) or its training ground hosted at a high school. So that leaves us with the anticipated crowds.

Boasts about breaking attendance records, printing 25,000 programs, etc., etc., ad naseum were driven by the hope / expectation that mom and dad and grandma and grandpa would bring out the youngsters as they did during FIFA's U19 Tournament.

Most, if not all, of Edmonton's committed soccer community knew that was flawed, as was the decision to place all of the eggs in the EMSA basket. Indeed, EIYSA was excluded from the reduced ticket package and development team scheme (well, they could go out and gain selection, but would then need to register as an EMSA player).

I can confirm with certainty that this approach alienated the EIYSA players, parents, coaches, and volunteers. While this competitive league could not have provided the sheer number of possible supporters, it would have ensured loyal fans. Better to have 750 committed youngsters, with parents and friends in tow, attending faithfully, than 8,000 passes in circulation rarely, if ever, used.

I have little or no doubt that EMSA truly wished to assist the Aviator franchise, but I also strongly suggest that this strategic partnership was part of the bigger hope of EMSA to gain sole control over amateur soccer in the city.

It seems laughable to consider some conspiracy theory, but this battle between EMSA and EIYSA has been widely reported, be it in print or live media. Newspaper articles, radio exposés and television spots have been devoted to this problem.

The desire to play in Commonwealth's caverns had to have been conceived based on either EMSA's projections, or the owners themselves believing that access to those constituents would guarantee huge support. Either way, the franchise is dead, in administration, and the dedicated soccer community left holding its breath that a white knight might ride in and save the day.

Nice three year plan.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by fishman

I have little or no doubt that EMSA truly wished to assist the Aviator franchise, but I also strongly suggest that this strategic partnership was part of the bigger hope of EMSA to gain sole control over amateur soccer in the city.

It seems laughable to consider some conspiracy theory, but this battle between EMSA and EIYSA has been widely reported, be it in print or live media. Newspaper articles, radio exposés and television spots have been devoted to this problem.

So political fighting between different Canadian soccer groups, each with its own interests, helps screw up Canadian soccer? Gee, what a big surprise. [xx(]

[martin lechelt]

My view to a "t". Charpentier et al promised the moon and failed to deliver. They are trying to pass the blame and have been successful so far. Just read the early press releases to see how what was promised by EMSA. I think the EMSA deal, and its subsequent fall-out (like alienating elite club players) is the PRIMARY blunder.

[zico]

I agree with much of what you guys have said, but i don't think the EMSA arrangement was the primary blunder (but it was a significant blunder). Tom Newton said that their breakeven attendance was 6,000 full price tickets (including the 1,000 season tickets) and 4,000 EMSA passholders per game. So excluding the EMSA passholdeers their assumption was way too high. I think they didn't understand the A-league and the product they were selling. All they needed to do was to look at Vancouver's experience for a reasonable guide. Vancouver has had a team for about 15 consecutive years and have been a contender for a championship in each league they've been in. Inspite of this history and a tradition of soccer in the city, the Whitecaps averaged 4,200 fans last year. That should've been a sobering fact for the Aviator investors, but they ignored it, as well as the advice from all the other team owners (according to the commissioner). They may be good businessmen in their own right, but they suspended critical judgement in this project. We may be worse off than if they hadn't done anything.

[leekoo]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

So political fighting between different Canadian soccer groups, each with its own interests, helps screw up Canadian soccer? Gee, what a big surprise.

youth soccer is one thing, pro soccer is another ...

where is it written that kiddie soccer must support the pro game ... anybody who believes this and counts on this is delusional and going to go broke real quick ...

and the edmonton aviators have ...

and youth soccer remains the great success story of canadian soccer ...

[laserk]

quote:Originally posted by zico

Tom Newton said that their breakeven attendance was 6,000 full price tickets (including the 1,000 season tickets) and 4,000 EMSA passholders per game. So excluding the EMSA passholdeers their assumption was way too high. I think they didn't understand the A-league and the product they were selling.

Could not the ownership group have been led to believe that those 6,000 full price tickets were supposed to come mainly from adults attending with their EMSA passholders which were minor children. A reasonable assumption, but minor soccer participants come in many flavours and the recreational echelon is the least likely to watch the sport and the least likely to have parents that will spend the ducats to accompany the child to what for them is perhaps not their major sporting interest.

The fact that other A-League teams used a different model to get attendance made the one proposed by the ownership group in partnership with EMSA seem attractive. In theory, how could you lose. You had scads of season passes out there and the only way for them to get to the games was with parents who you could charge full pop to.

[zico]

Yes, your explanation is quite plausible and I don't disagree that it may have happened that way. My point is that in light of other A-league experience, and advice to the contrary, why did the investors fall for that line? If marketing soccer was as easy as basically giving away youth passes and then expecting parents to pay $20 a pop to tag along, I expect other teams would have started doing that long ago. Versions of that strategy have been tried in Edmonton before and have lead to the same outcome. I guess I'm just amazed that the investors weren't critical enough of the business plan. If it had been been my money on the line I hope I would have behaved differently. And I do think that EMSA's attempts to blame the investors entirely is pretty low.

[laserk]

While versions of the "season pass giveaway" scheme may have been tried here before, never has it had the wholesale endorsement and promise of EMSA's largesse. In their April 30 press release it was announced:

The Edmonton Aviators are committed to the growth and development of soccer in our region.

In keeping with this commitment, we are proud to have developed a unique and meaningful partnership with the Edmonton Minor Soccer Association (EMSA).

The spirit of the agreement is to ensure that EMSA and the Edmonton Aviators work co-operatively to develop the sport of soccer in a way that will benefit the youth in our community. It is our sincere hope that in doing so, we can help local youth realize their dream of playing professional soccer.

.....

Thirdly, every registered EMSA player will receive a season pass to attend all Edmonton Aviators home games at Commonwealth Stadium. These season passes will be provided to all EMSA players as part of their 2004 EMSA registration fees.

This will result in a significant fan base for Aviators home games prior to initiating other ticket plans and programs. By welcoming this committed young fan base and combining their enthusiasm with the Edmonton Aviators commitment to providing a fun and affordable family entertainment experience, we’re well on our way to ensuring the sustainability of professional soccer in Edmonton.

EMSA is the largest sports association in the Edmonton area. This agreement was made possible through their vision for the future of the sport of soccer, on behalf of youth, in our city. We are thankful for their vision and for their commitment to youth that play the game....

EMSA committed their 20,000 members to season passes by including it in their soccer fees. When the zones revolted and forced Charpentier and co. to make the passes voluntary the scheme fell apart. The blame for the Aviators problems must surely fall on EMSA since their promise announced in this press release was the linchpin of the financial underpinnings of the Aviators. If you were a member of the ownership group would you not believe this was as close to a sure thing as is possible without knowing that EMSA is built on sand?

[seether]

Even if they had managed to get the 20,000 out to EMSA, I have a hard time thinking that many more would have been used when it was discovered that the accompanying tickets cost $20 a pop.

EMSA can take some of the blame, but I think the Aviators priced themselves too high, and that had a lot more impact than the failure to get 20,000 season passes out.

[laserk]

If they had the 20,000 at $15 each that EMSA appeared to guarantee them it didn't matter so much if the stadium were empty...they already had $300,00 in the kitty without any cost to them other than the EMSA commitments.

However I'm sure the plan also had so many adults per child pass and so on, and that would just be gravy.

They could charge whatever they wanted for general admission because if the kid wanted to go, the adult had no choice. If you have a captive audience why price yourself low?

Take a look at what that $300,000 represented in A-League terms. A typical team charging $10 and getting 2,500 paid admissions would require 12 games to get that into their account.

The Aviators were expecting that on day one and then would be able to cruise from there on.

Make no mistake. EMSA told the ownership group they would include these tickets in their soccer fee and in return only for the Aviator's endorsement of their program they could have $300,000. Too much of a carrot for any fledgling pro team to resist I would suggest.

[seether]

Yes, but thats not $300,000 over what they did get, its $180,000. And when you are already so far in the hole two months into the season that you just give up, it isn't nearly enough.

Note, I'm not saying EMSA's blameless, but I think they were only a small part of the problem.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by leekoo

youth soccer is one thing, pro soccer is another ...

where is it written that kiddie soccer must support the pro game ... anybody who believes this and counts on this is delusional and going to go broke real quick ...

and the edmonton aviators have ...

and youth soccer remains the great success story of canadian soccer ...

If people want to see youth soccer survive and prosper, supporting the pro game is the only option.

[L.T.]

Sorry Doyle that's just wishful thinking - Youth soccer is thriving (over here anyway) and the pro game is barely a blip on the radar.

I get 3,000 hits a day and none of them are talking about pro soccer...

L.T.

www.ontariosoccerweb.com

[ditty]

This story eerily reminds of the Calgary Storm when they went from the PDL to the A-League. Their plan was to instantly become "the" youth club in Calgary. Their subsequent approach included bullying existing clubs in an attempt to get the best youth players and influencing Calgary Minor Soccer to do away with zones and make Calgary an open club system. They ended up charging oodles more than any other club, having mostly parent coaches, not winning a single league title if I remember correctly (and having some embarassingly uncompetitive teams along the way) and ultimately competing with and trying squash the very people they were depending on for the survival of the pro team. My interpretation was that the youth set-up was seen as a money maker to help support the pro team. It ended up turning many people who had supported the PDL side completely off of the A-League entry.

The moral of the story is that you have to work with every single member and influencer within the soccer community if you want a pro team to make it.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by ditty

The moral of the story is that you have to work with every single member and influencer within the soccer community if you want a pro team to make it.

Yeah, I agree, that's what I was trying to say before, though I apply that sentiment in general and not just to pro teams. There too many individuals in Canadian soccer and not enough people working together, whether it be youth, pro, whatever.

[leekoo]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

If people want to see youth soccer survive and prosper, supporting the pro game is the only option.

this is the kind of dangerous delusion people outside of youth soccer cling to ... it's very sad ...

youth soccer thrives, pro soccer does not ...

youth soccer is the biggest financial contributor to the national program ...

if you are thinking of getting into the pro soccer business, do yourself a favour, don't take youth soccer for granted, don't make the mistake the edmonton aviators made ...

[Injured reserve]

quote:Originally posted by leekoo

if you are thinking of getting into the pro soccer business, do yourself a favour, don't take youth soccer for granted, don't make the mistake the edmonton aviators made ...

I agree, I'd think most kids are playing soccer purely as a recreational activity and aren't necessarily fans of the game. I think the avs failed by not catering directly to soccer fans and sports fans in Edmonton.

It's interesting that they actually managed a decent level of attendance (by a-league standards). I wonder how much of the crowd paid full admission. Maybe a big chunk of the crowd was coming in on those $20 season tickets.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by Injured reserve

I agree, I'd think most kids are playing soccer purely as a recreational activity and aren't necessarily fans of the game. I think the avs failed by not catering directly to soccer fans and sports fans in Edmonton.

It's interesting that they actually managed a decent level of attendance (by a-league standards). I wonder how much of the crowd paid full admission. Maybe a big chunk of the crowd was coming in on those $20 season tickets.

I highly doubt it. Their budget called for them drawing huge crowds. Like they themselves admitted they needed 2,000 fans per game just to pay to operate the jumbotron. Most teams in the A-League base their whole budget on just averaging 2,000 fans alone. Even if Edmonton were averaging Montreal like numbers the investors would have probably pulled out.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by leekoo

this is the kind of dangerous delusion people outside of youth soccer cling to ... it's very sad ...

youth soccer thrives, pro soccer does not ...

youth soccer is the biggest financial contributor to the national program ...

if you are thinking of getting into the pro soccer business, do yourself a favour, don't take youth soccer for granted, don't make the mistake the edmonton aviators made ...

Youth soccer isn't thriving. If it is, then why does hockey still surpass us by the late teens?

Is it due to soccer being a rec sport? Seemingly less as the years go by. The reality is that there is little for a soccer play to aspire to when he gets to the top youth levels.

Finances mean squat when there are no results to match that. The current sucess have to do with the American and European sides who develop our talent than with the Canadian youth system.

A pro team will always be the apex of soccer development anywhere in Canada. Youth teams have to get behind that if they want to see their efforts work. They can't deny that.

[leekoo]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Youth soccer isn't thriving. If it is, then why does hockey still surpass us by the late teens?

Is it due to soccer being a rec sport? Seemingly less as the years go by. The reality is that there is little for a soccer play to aspire to when he gets to the top youth levels.

we were discussing youth soccer vs pro soccer, not youth soccer vs youth hockey, weren't we ...

nevertheless, participation in all youth sports begins to decline at about 13 years of age ...

is it the fault of youth soccer that there is no great incentive to continue playing ... is it the fault of youth soccer that there is no pro soccer to look forward to ...

put the blame on the CSA and the long list of pro soccer failures, not youth soccer ...

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Finances mean squat when there are no results to match that.

if not for youth soccer finances canada would not be able to field national teams ... youth soccer is the biggest single source of national team revenue ... and 90% of the youth soccer dollars comes from the recreational players ... put this money back into the pocket of the youth player and we have no national program ...

as for pro soccer, ask the montreal impact if youth soccer dollars means squat ...

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The current sucess have to do with the American and European sides who develop our talent than with the Canadian youth system.

A pro team will always be the apex of soccer development anywhere in Canada. Youth teams have to get behind that if they want to see their efforts work. They can't deny that.

it seeems your concern is development ... i'm telling you that play is more important ... without play we have nothing ...

as for development, pro soccer in canada has done barely anything to develop elite canadian players ...

pro soccer is going to go broke believing that youth teams must get behind its product ... it's the reverse, pro soccer has to convince youth soccer to support it ...

[fishman]

DoyleG, I wish to preface this post with a disclaimer...I am not trying to beat up on you or your position. But I do need to point out something, as so often you speak with authority.

You proclaim soccer as a sport which is not "thriving", and use hockey for the purposes of comparison.

Hockey Canada has a total of ~538,000 registered players....CSA has a total of ~825,000. CSA has experienced growth of 4.5%, while Hockey Canada has shown a 1% improvement.

Hockey Canada is elated with the growth in female players...10.8% more than the year previous. CSA? 11.6% more females playing when comparing the same time frame.

So which sport is thriving, DoyleG?

If one compares the difference vis-a-vis competitiveness, well, obviously hockey will win out in a landslide. But we are comparing apples and oranges. Hockey has been the sport, or religion, of the masses forever. We are a winter country, dominated by snow for months on end in most areas. The culture of hockey is ingrained, and it remains the sport of choice for males.

Soccer has 50 years of ground to make up, and indeed professional soccer is a required element in ensuring we have competitive national teams. Whether we can ever be competitive, as in the top 25 countries, remains to be seen. the biggest hurdle is our geography - our players are cast about over how-many time zones, and are snow-bound without adequate facilities for how many months.

The top countries in the world of soccer are, by and large, free from winter as we know it. In the top 40, you might say 5 of those countries have definable seasons. And they still can play soccer during the traditional time of play - our winter!

Youth soccer numbers in this country are not dependent on professional play. Drop out rates for players in their teens is ubiquitous in sport...youngsters get jobs, relationships, higher levels of study, are faced with over-zealous coaches, etc..

Soccer will continue to be a sport of participation, but it can become of sport of competition in this country when professional teams are committed to their communities, have sound business plans and use soccer-wise people in positions of authority.

But DoyleG...don't say that soccer isn't thriving...it most certainly is.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by fishman

You proclaim soccer as a sport which is not "thriving", and use hockey for the purposes of comparison.

Hockey Canada has a total of ~538,000 registered players....CSA has a total of ~825,000. CSA has experienced growth of 4.5%, while Hockey Canada has shown a 1% improvement.

Hockey Canada is elated with the growth in female players...10.8% more than the year previous. CSA? 11.6% more females playing when comparing the same time frame.

So which sport is thriving, DoyleG?

I've lost count on how many medals we've won in international hockey in the past couple of decades. How many times have we won international soccer titles over the past couple of decades? Not much.

Yet with all the females, why haven't we seen much success on the international level?

quote:Originally posted by fishman

If one compares the difference vis-a-vis competitiveness, well, obviously hockey will win out in a landslide. But we are comparing apples and oranges. Hockey has been the sport, or religion, of the masses forever. We are a winter country, dominated by snow for months on end in most areas. The culture of hockey is ingrained, and it remains the sport of choice for males.

Everyone said baseball was the religion of Americans forever. Look what happened there. It's also obvious that you haven't tried to play outdoors during the winter.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Soccer has 50 years of ground to make up, and indeed professional soccer is a required element in ensuring we have competitive national teams. Whether we can ever be competitive, as in the top 25 countries, remains to be seen. the biggest hurdle is our geography - our players are cast about over how-many time zones, and are snow-bound without adequate facilities for how many months.

That has to be the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. It has nothing to do with being in the top 25 of the world. It's about staying with the Australia's, Japan's, Korea's, South Africa's and China's of the world. Time-zone's to you are an excuse as much as your excuse about geography. The facilities are there to be used and should be used in the right way.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

The top countries in the world of soccer are, by and large, free from winter as we know it. In the top 40, you might say 5 of those countries have definable seasons. And they still can play soccer during the traditional time of play - our winter!

More excuses

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Youth soccer numbers in this country are not dependent on professional play. Drop out rates for players in their teens is ubiquitous in sport...youngsters get jobs, relationships, higher levels of study, are faced with over-zealous coaches, etc..

More outdated excuses.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Soccer will continue to be a sport of participation, but it can become of sport of competition in this country when professional teams are committed to their communities, have sound business plans and use soccer-wise people in positions of authority.

But DoyleG...don't say that soccer isn't thriving...it most certainly is.

Yet you can have all of that and still the youth won't get behind it. Enough of these stupid excuses.

[fishman]

DoyleG, I sometimes wonder why I would engage in a butt-kicking fight with a one-legged man. I will assume that your post lacks cohesive thought due to the late time at which you wrote.

All you have done is serve as the Devil's advocate. The reality remains: Canada lacks proper facilities in which to train during the months of November - March inclusive, to which you could also add half of October and half of April; this is a total of 6 months.

I am not speaking of indoor, 5-a-side play, whether it is Futsal or North American indoor. I am speaking of 11-a-side facilities, preferably with Field Turf / Astroplay.

Further, you want to keep up with the Australia, Japan, Korea, S. Africa, etc., etc, of the world. Ummm...do they have winter as we know it? Do they have alternate facilties in which to train if weather is inclement? You mention you are not talking top 25 in the world...well, some of the countries you mention are top 25 in the world.

Ice Hockey and soccer / football are two entirely different sports...most importantly, how many countries actually compete in hockey? Hmmm? Well, over 200 countries compete in soccer, DoyleG.

And baseball? Religion of the masses? It remains a huge draw in the US, and the game is played primarily by those countries in which America has huge influence, be it economic, cultural, or political. I.e., the Far East, Latin America and Canada. So again, not really sure what you are driving at.

I haven't played outdoors in the winter? Ummm, what does that mean? Play what? Yes, I have played outdoors in the winter, in the snow, in competition, here in Canada, and no, it doesn't promote good quality. But that probably isn't what you meant. What did you mean?

Excuses? More like explanations, and that isn't just semantics. And check your facts (or lack thereof) before immediately dismissing people. My facts are the most up-to-date available, and as such, I can speak with confidence.

This is much like the last time we strongly disagreed...Commonwealth Stadium, wasn't it? And the ownership group...they were the right owners, weren't they?

I am not trying to get into a mud-slinging match with you, but it frustrates me when you fail to grasp the underlying issue in the debate. My central point is that soccer is a thriving sport in this country at the youth level, and is destined to remain so. If professional soccer is to succeed, it needs to embrace the amateur ranks, not vice-versa. It needs to sell itself to the public, it needs to educate the players at a young age, it needs to have proper planning and include the soccer-mad during its genesis.

Youth soccer has grown DESPITE not having a professional league to which players can aspire. I wonder what it might do if a league did pop up and properly market itself.