laserk Posted July 30, 2004 Author Share Posted July 30, 2004 Thank you all for your posts with regard to EIYSA and EMSA and the background issues that are influencing perhaps what is going on here in Edmonton. The waters that have been perhaps muddied for some time are becoming somewhat clearer and getting the facts out to the soccer public I think is a valuable service that we can do. It has been offered up in several posts that EIYSA should perhaps have made the same offer to the Aviators that EMSA did and thereby offset the advantages that EMSA thought they would gain from that arrangement. In talking to Barrie White, President and CEO of EIYSA (correct title), the true facts were made apparent. The short answer is that neither EIYSA or EDSA were given the opportunity to participate in any form with the Aviators. The only time that EIYSA or EDSA were contacted by the Aviators was some 3 years ago at a Soccer Federation Of Edmonton meeting where Wylie Stafford asked for the support of pro soccer in Edmonton should such a thing happen. At the time there was no Aviators, no one associated with the organization had been named and it was all theoretical. The response from all three groups was that while they supported pro soccer in principle, they thought that Edmonton needed to change its structure for pro soccer based on the demise of all the previous pro teams before the members of the SFE (which included EMSA) could officially entertain endorsement of pro soccer again in Edmonton. Next thing you knew, behind the scenes, the deal had been worked out with EMSA which ultimately imho led to the troubles that the Aviators now find themselves in. It should perhaps also be understood that EIYSA bases its budget on zero based budgeting. That means that they only charge as much as it costs to run the program and there is no surplus at the end of any season. The difference here is that EMSA by overcharging its members accrues a surplus. This perhaps gives them an advantage, but in fairness to the soccer paying public, I'm not so sure they should be overcharging and as a non-profit organization there are some tax legalities involved with accumulating funds. One other item of clarification: EIYSA and EMSA are structured differently. While it appears that Charpentier is unpaid except for expenses and honoraria this does not hold true for the running of EMSA. There are some half dozen paid people doing the work of the organization. In the case of the President and CEO of EIYSA, Barrie White, he is paid a small salary as the only employee of EIYSA. This paid position existed prior to Mr. White taking the duties over when the incumbent didn't return from maternity leave. Until that point Mr. White was for many years an unpaid volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertaboy Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 ASA usually don't get themselves in these district affairs, as they feel it is not good judgement to be involved with these local matters. If EIYSA and EMSA are going to come to a resolution it is going to come from the Edmonton Soccer Federation is going to deal with this matter, not ASA. ASA only see themselves as an organization which will deal with matters that are provincial in nature. ie. AMSL, provincial teams, They will not do anything unless someone breaches their by-laws. As along as they pay their fees and things continue as normal, nothing will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 What bothers me in the running feud between EIYSA and EMSA is this: each has a strength in providing programs to their respective communities. EMSA does a very good job at providing opportunities to participate and play. EIYSA offers a platform for competitive players in the Edmonton area to chase elite play. However, EMSA chose to delve into this market, diluting player pools. In turn, EIYSA has recently experimented with Tier III and U-10 teams. The loser? The players, but of course. And no, ASA is not willing to intervene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 What bothers me in the running feud between EIYSA and EMSA is this: each has a strength in providing programs to their respective communities. EMSA does a very good job at providing opportunities to participate and play. EIYSA offers a platform for competitive players in the Edmonton area to chase elite play. However, EMSA chose to delve into this market, diluting player pools. In turn, EIYSA has recently experimented with Tier III and U-10 teams. The loser? The players, but of course. And no, ASA is not willing to intervene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertaboy Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 When a person purchases a ticket to go see the Aviators, they are really forming a contract with the Aviators. The Aviators are offering the right to see the Aviators play a match on a certain date, at a certain time and a certain location, in exchange for a certain amount of money. Many people decided that the terms offered by the Aviators were not to their liking, based upon their situation. As the consumer has very little leeway in offerering a counteroffer, it is up to the Aviators to provide terms that will appeal to the greatest number of people. Thus, the Aviators must change the date, time,location, or price; or they must offer more consideration to the consumer to make the other terms of the contract more acceptable. To offer more consideration they must embrace the consumer as much as they can, through soccer camps; a feeling of joy, happiness, excitement; winning team; or anything number of other things; so that they want to accept the terms offered by the Aviators. Consumers include youth soccer players find it is very hard for these people to embrace something where they feel they are not receiving enough consideration for what they are being offered. The Aviators needed to embrace youth soccer, and their parents; the Aviators also needed to embrace other consumers as well. They did not do either of these things. For youth soccer to embrace what the Aviators had offered would be have been like hugging a rock. Youth soccer and consumers want to embrace a person not a rock. If it was a person in the first place that they were embracing, they might have been the ones running to embrace the Aviators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 quote:Originally posted by fishman What bothers me in the running feud between EIYSA and EMSA is this: each has a strength in providing programs to their respective communities. EMSA does a very good job at providing opportunities to participate and play. EIYSA offers a platform for competitive players in the Edmonton area to chase elite play. However, EMSA chose to delve into this market, diluting player pools. In turn, EIYSA has recently experimented with Tier III and U-10 teams. The loser? The players, but of course. And no, ASA is not willing to intervene. That is the difference in phlosophy between Canadian soccer organization and that in many other countries. The FA in England, for instance, would not stand by and allow the situation that is happening in Edmonton youth soccer to continue. They would not allow the shennangins that have occured in and around the CPSL to continue, for instance. I know that the Ontario Association is responsible for the CPSL and the ASA for the Edmonton youth situations, but they in turn are responsible to the CSA who are responsible in turn to FIFA. And all organizations are responsible to follow the bylaws and regulations under the various government legislation as well. Similiar problems occurred in hockey in the 60's and 70's, and the federal government's response was to set up Hockey Canada to clean the problems up. But that was a result of public outcry, and soccer doesn't have the visibility. There is a similiar history of the British government successfully intervening to clean up the FA. It may seem heavyhanded and imperfect, but it works. Part of the problem is that soccer organization in Canada is too unwieldy, much like the national confederation. To make changes you need to have effective action both at the top and the bottom. The CSA executive is composed of provincial organization members. There is too much bureaucracy and not enough public accountability. Our best hope is to try to get the federal government involved, perhaps through the formation of a public pressure group that can promote pressure through the media. I may be wrong, but to try to change these systemic problems from the ground up alone, through trying to elect officials who are willing to work together and reform the system, will not work without a greater public effort to get governemnt authourities to intervene. Efforts for reform have to be multipronged, because the energy will otherwise just be dissipated through the various layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Ashton Gate Very few people have the foggiest clue who the Soccer Federation of Edmonton (SFE) are. so what is the SFE ... i couldn't find a website ... quote:Originally posted by Ashton Gate Since the EMSA/EIYSA feud has been going on for donkeys years it appears the SFE have failed to sort out the issue. The likelihood of them doing so is very slim indeed. if the EMSA is running recreational youth soccer and the EIYSA is running competitive youth soccer then Edmonton youth soccer has got it right ... there is no issue to sort out .... the big youth soccer issue has a already been sorted out ... quote:Originally posted by Ashton Gate Reading on the ASA web page the effusive and glowing assessment of how the game is flourishing under their astute governance, I was mistaken in thinking the ASA might step up, bash a few heads together for the sake of the children and their parents who actually pay their fees. it's called HAPPYTALK ... all governing bodies suffer from it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 quote:Originally posted by beachesl Our best hope is to try to get the federal government involved, perhaps through the formation of a public pressure group that can promote pressure through the media. I may be wrong, but to try to change these systemic problems from the ground up alone, through trying to elect officials who are willing to work together and reform the system, will not work without a greater public effort to get governemnt authourities to intervene. youth soccer's greatest need is more and better infrastructure ... get governments to move on this ... YES, but buyer beware ... all else, NO NO NO NO NO ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 You can have the best and most expensive football infratructure in the world, but if it is misused by little banana republic dictators in their own little fiefdoms, it'll all go sour. I think there is real improvement in the developement programs in the province and nationally, but things have to be better coordinated from the ground up, and things have to become a lot more logical and less personal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 quote:Originally posted by beachesl You can have the best and most expensive football infratructure in the world, but if it is misused by little banana republic dictators in their own little fiefdoms, it'll all go sour. I think there is real improvement in the developement programs in the province and nationally, but things have to be better coordinated from the ground up, and things have to become a lot more logical and less personal.. what do we mean by development ... i hope it doesn't just mean getting 100 players ready to compete internationally ... there is an NTC program in place across the country ... the 2004 boys selections were just announced ... GOTO http://soccer.loop48.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1670 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 No, the NTC programs and the youth development through the provinces and the CSA are good, from what I've seen. The problem exists in the politics and ambience of who is filtered through at the lower levels in some places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 There's too much politics and favouritism in elite youth soccer in Canada. There's countless stories of young Canadians making it to Europe who were passed up by the NTC and other provincial teams. Check out this tread on Stephen Ademolu, who was cut from the OSA U14 team because he lived too far from Toronto: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3565&SearchTerms=windsor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Ashton Gate BUT the ASA missed other excellent players who are now not on the radar. It is at this level that soccer development in Canada is shambolic. My heart goes out to the quality young players across this land who (for various reasons) fail to shine in a one shot, unrefereed tryout. I am sure there are provincial coaches who do a better job getting out to club games than the current U-15 Alberta coaches, however I have coached club soccer in Edmonton for several years and I have NEVER, repeat NEVER, seen these individuals ever attend a tier 1 club game. Forgive me for spouting, but I think this is disgraceful and is also one reason why many of us club coaches perceive the ASA as piss artists when it comes to player identification. I am sure there are many other tales to tell in other provincial organisations, they tend to only be listened to whenever someone slips through the system. I am sure Messrs Benning et al. had a nice time picking their NTC list in BC last week. However, as thorough as their scouting job may have been, they were picking from who the provinces had picked before them. In many instances thats rather like building the whole house on sand. shambolic, i like that ... no they NEVER come out and see you ... unless it's the nationals ... another sham, another free ride for the national coaching staff ... a silly competition with the likes of prince edward island there ... serious blowouts every year ... prince edward island with a total player registration of 5,000 ... many greater toronto youth clubs register more players ... keep this p.e.i registration in mind ... it comes into play in canadian national soccer politics ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Ashton Gate... In no way am I going to get on you for your comments... And I, too, am happy the one lad you talked about got identified by the NTC...he is indeed a great player. About the ASA program... The mandate given to coaches is, well sketchy at best. If one is involved in winter training (as most of us are), you run 20ish sessions during the indoor season; the training group is loosely based on past ASA teams, scouting, and club coaches' recommendations. It is a dynamic program in that players come in and out. Advance scouting is at the discretion of the coaches...if they care about their program, they will attend matches, but quite often, the lion's share of coaches only go to provincial championships and / or tournaments, and as such, miss out on seeing other quality players. The trials are, indeed, imperfect (and that is being very, very diplomatic). At the younger ages (U13 / 14), the numbers can be overwhelming, and advance scouting is critical. The time allotted isn't great, nor is the format. While I have solicited reports from club coaches relative to their players and who they rate in their group, I don't know how many other ASA coaches do that. Some do, I know, and it does help immensely. Club coaches have so much more time with their players, and are in a good position to offer insight. That said, some players simply don't show well. That could be a one-day thing, or it could be that their style doesn't translate well to elevated competition. Many players' mistakes aren't punished at the club level, while at a higher level, they are amplified. I won't speak for the U15 program, but I can say for mine, I was well informed about the players in attendance. Certainly not all of them, as they are open trials, and as such, one can't possibly know everyone. However, of those that were in the final 30 (trimmed to 18), we knew all of those individuals and had trained many of them in winter and / or had seen them play multiple times. Further, their club coaches were consulted to some degree. I truly dislike the format of trials; the $10 surely could have been put towards officials. However, one of the litmus tests used for the players in selections is how well they can sort problems out...coaches do not coach at all, and don't even prescribe positions. I like to think players play, and can regulate themselves. But referees and a modicum of safety, well, absolutely that should be a given. Your point about the state of the Select team program is well taken...the one true road to national identification is through provincial teams. And the fact that so many players fail to get a chance is terrible. However, club coaches should take the bull by the horns and write to the Provincial Coaches (Head, North and South...the paid ones...lol)...reports should be filed by the club people on their players attending trials so that information can be used by provincial coaches. The trials are open, which is good and bad. Invitiational trials are a problem, too, but they would assist in keeping numbers down to those with a legitimate chance of making the team. Ideas? Back to invitational, using club coaches as the ones making those choices? would that create problems, too? Would we miss players because some coaches have biases there as well? Maybe, just maybe, by hiring part-time people at provincial levels (District Technical Directors, perhaps?), and having as part of their description scouting, we might get further along. Regarding NTC scouting...no comment, other than to say it is a rare thing to have the CSA staff coaches talk or correspond with their provincial counterparts. As such, some of their choices are based on 20 minutes of watching 1 game. Problems? I think so. Until we as a country put some money into coaching at younger ages, we will get, to a large degree, what we pay for. So often you hear the same thing by sports professionals / administrators / Olympic trainers...if you could do one thing, what would it be? And they almost universally say that they would put more money into coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Oh yes...one other thing. Regarding a provincial league, akin to a Major league or what is occuring elsewhere. The ASA wants that to happen. I have thought that a pre-season seeding round robin affair would be great, for U14 and 16, Tier I. Get 3 teams from Edmonton, 3 from Calgary, 1 from Red Deer, 1 from CASA / Lakeland, 1 from Lethbridge, 1 from Sunny South, or something like that. Play the matches in Red Deer at a facility sponsored by ASA, one that could be used for training camps, etc.. Red Deer is a good central spot, and would help to ensure that Edmonton doesn't fight with Calgary. Sounds good, I think. Fat chance that the districts in Alberta would ever agree. They won't agree, as the idea has been floated. As if they would allow their best teams and / or players to be competing out of jurisdiction. How would provincals be settled? Blah, blah, blah. That one logical step - allow the most competitive programs to compete against one another - would be a massive improvement. How much better the play would be, and how much easier scouting would become. Too bad that soccer-wise, the tail wags the dog in this province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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