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Aviators-a new scenario with history


laserk

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quote:Originally posted by fishman

... Canada lacks proper facilities in which to train during the months of November - March inclusive, to which you could also add half of October and half of April; this is a total of 6 months.

I am not speaking of indoor, 5-a-side play, whether it is Futsal or North American indoor. I am speaking of 11-a-side facilities, preferably with Field Turf / Astroplay.

Uhm, not that I want to wade into this mess but your credibility is brought into question when you make unfounded statements like the one above. Perhaps it was just the heat of the moment but did you forget about Vancouver and Victoria? We can play soccer on grass virtually 12 months of the year.

Fer cryin out loud, we have national rowing team members on Elk Lake in December! :D

Anyway, just wanted to add that correction, I'm off to have tea. ;)

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I have stated in past posts that only on the (left) coast are players able to train year-round. Indeed, I have not forgotten about British Columbia, but we need to remember that while BC can boast about good football weather in December, it represents only ~14% of the registered players in the country.

It isn't hard to do the math thereafter...most districts are, well, lacking a place to train and play around, say, Christmas.

Green grass in January on the island does little for the freezing souls in Saskatchewan...

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quote:Originally posted by laserk

I want to offer up another scenario for the recent demise of the Aviators in Edmonton. It strikes me as odd that a successful group of businessmen could have put forward a business plan that failed so quickly and utterly. Despite some of the things written in the media the ownership group has proven business savvy and a history of being pretty good at what they do individually. Given their business track record how could this possibly have happened? I don't buy the argument that they didn't know A-League soccer or sport in general. Entertainment is entertainment and sport is sport. You can miscalculate somewhat, but this was on a grand scale compared to a simple miscalculation.

My theory is that they were victims of bad advice and listening only to what they wanted to hear. Recent posts have reiterated the need to build an A-League team brick by brick and build trust and loyalty in your fan base over time. The Edmonton group was led to believe they could short-circuit this process and their grandiose plans proved that.

I don't believe Ross Ongaro or Joe Petrone need to share in this debacle since they were mainly charged with the personnel and on-field operations of the Club. They were not a major part of the policy and financial decisions that plagued the Aviators from the outset since those in the end are the privilege of the ownership.

From my recall of the history of this Club, I believe their major blunder was hooking up with the Edmonton Minor Soccer Association (EMSA). In theory it was a great deal and should have produced the financial base that the fledgling team needed. The trouble was, it was a theory and not reality.

Edmonton Minor Soccer, taking credit for the recent successes of the big event U-19 girls and Team Canada Womens game that filled a lot of seats seemed like a credible choice. Those intimate with Edmonton youth soccer recognize that FIFA, a huge budget and big-name draws, along with a committed, excellent volunteer group that was only partially affiliated with Edmonton Minor Soccer were the real reasons for these soccer marketing coups in Edmonton.

What EMSA proposed was that cheap $15 season tickets for their 20.000+ members would provide the footing that the Aviators needed. These kids would then drag along their parents who would be captive to the $20 tickets for each double-header that the Aviator men & women played. At worst there would be some $300,000 in the kitty and a full-looking Commonwealth Stadium would generate the buzz to get the Club to the elite status they craved in this city, forgoing all the growing pains of sports teams.

In return EMSA had a list of things the Aviators could do for them to make their own Tier 1 and 2 program more competitive with the rival Edmonton Interdistrict Youth Soccer Association (EIYSA). These included restricting the cheap tickets to EMSA players, forming Aviators developmental teams where membership meant leaving EIYSA to go to EMSA, having a certain number of local players on the Aviators teams, running camps and clinics in conjunction with EMSA and so on. Still, not a bad deal for the Aviators.

The problem now was that EMSA couldn't deliver. The ownership group were forced to book Commonwealth in order to accommodate what they were led to believe would be massive crowds of kids and parents. This obviously never came into fruition. And to top it off they had now alienated the EIYSA players and parents…the Club members.

The EIYSA players & parents were used to soccer at a higher level. They were not just recreational players whose season was a couple of months. They had a real commitment to soccer and paid higher fees and spent much more on soccer and were generally more knowledgeable than the average rec player and parents. They knew what the A-League was and knew who Kurt Bosch, Ross Ongaro and other former Drillers were. I wouldn't say they exactly boycotted Aviator games, but given the circumstances there was no real push to go to them either.

The trouble with EIYSA though was the numbers of elite players was much smaller than recreational just by definition. They couldn't sell the numbers of season tickets that would pay a substantial part of the Aviator budget to their members. However, probably all of the local players on both the men's & women's Aviator teams were former EIYSA players of recent vintage with close ties to that group. Their local talent would likely come from this organization.

EIYSA could make no grandiose proclamations and like their own organization felt that the Aviators needed to build their base slowly with all the soccer organizations in Edmonton helping to establish them. This would include not only the recreational and elite youth organizations, but the Edmonton District Soccer Association (EDSA) as well which represents all the adult soccer in Edmonton. This group too was slighted, even though their numbers were as large as EMSA in the headlong rush to use children as bait to bring along adults to games and secure the $300,000 that was being dangled by EMSA.

Mario Charpentier, President of EMSA, is now protesting wildly that EMSA promised the Aviators nothing and that they were only charged with making the tickets available to their members. It seems somewhat likely that some promises were at least implied given the level of services the Aviators were giving EMSA exclusively. Why would the Aviators ignore the other soccer interests in Edmonton and even risk alienating them for nothing? The Aviators could have made low cost minor soccer passes available themselves if what Charpentier says is valid. There is more to this than EMSA is letting on and face-saving is now in progress big time in the City Of Champions.

Some of the zones in EMSA have been at odds with their leadership for some time now and only two of the zones endorsed the EMSA Aviators ticket program with the majority of zones either bowing out or leaving it as an individual's choice. They did reportedly manage to move some 8,000 passes, many though as part of their community soccer fees, but in reality these kids were not all that interested in watching soccer. The proof here is the despite having the passes they didn't go to the games. They like to play it recreationally, but they also enjoy hockey, baseball and other sports. Soccer is a small part of their yearly activity and as long as the cost is minimal to participate, they do so. Even if they are interested in using their passes, the cost to parents to attend what is basically a peripheral sport to them was seen as prohibitive.

So, the bottom line is that likely the ownership group was victimized by the rosy projections based on allying themselves with EMSA. They booked the huge facility based on even a small portion of the EMSA kids with parents attending. They put basically all their eggs in the EMSA basket and when that didn't work on day one they were pooched. There was no way for them to recover in time to save the franchise when they saw that EMSA alone couldn't deliver the numbers. They couldn't go anywhere because by hooking up with EMSA they had excluded the rest of Edmonton's paying soccer community.

There was also perhaps the perception that they were kind of a Mickey Mouse, kid-friendly organization and not the high-level competitive soccer team that they wanted to be and their adult pricing implied. Relying too heavily on promoting to children made them seem less of a professional team to the public that could afford their seats. In hindsight the reverse would probably have been better…promoting to Edmonton's serious Club and adult soccer community and having them introduce their rec playing kids to the pro game over time.

I could be wrong, but given the above it is likely.

Wow!! Well put! You have put a lot of thought and effort into this discussion and quiet franklly nobody didn't do their homework and I knew from day 1 that aviators were dead in the water when plan to partner with EMSA, Play at Commonwealth Stadium with 11,000 average when the A-League as whole averages less than 5,00 and with no advertising what so ever!

You should send this letter to the Edmonton Sun and The Edmonton Journal. Your Piece is a worthwhile discussion.

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quote:Originally posted by fishman

DoyleG, I sometimes wonder why I would engage in a butt-kicking fight with a one-legged man. I will assume that your post lacks cohesive thought due to the late time at which you wrote.

I just got sick and tired of hearing you whine. I work till 9pm in a call centre deal with the likes of you.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

All you have done is serve as the Devil's advocate. The reality remains: Canada lacks proper facilities in which to train during the months of November - March inclusive, to which you could also add half of October and half of April; this is a total of 6 months.

I am not speaking of indoor, 5-a-side play, whether it is Futsal or North American indoor. I am speaking of 11-a-side facilities, preferably with Field Turf / Astroplay.

That's still good playing time for Canada to have 6 months of outdoor play. You can't be sure of getting that much time in most of Europe since they play in the winter.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Further, you want to keep up with the Australia, Japan, Korea, S. Africa, etc., etc, of the world. Ummm...do they have winter as we know it? Do they have alternate facilties in which to train if weather is inclement? You mention you are not talking top 25 in the world...well, some of the countries you mention are top 25 in the world.

Winter doesn't always mean snow numpty. They generally don't have alternative facilities to train in when they weather goes bad.

Yet again you miss the point. We were even and even head of many of these countries 10 years ago. They got their acts together and the youths got behind the pros. Look at where they are now. They are the way things should be done. What goes on here is a disgrace.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Ice Hockey and soccer / football are two entirely different sports...most importantly, how many countries actually compete in hockey? Hmmm? Well, over 200 countries compete in soccer, DoyleG.

Yet more countries are competitive in hockey than in soccer. Yet you will never grasp this in your closed mind.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

And baseball? Religion of the masses? It remains a huge draw in the US, and the game is played primarily by those countries in which America has huge influence, be it economic, cultural, or political. I.e., the Far East, Latin America and Canada. So again, not really sure what you are driving at.

Baseball in the US WAS the religion. It's not anymore if you actually look at what's going on. America doesn't have the economic influence you think it has. Your still wearing the rose-coloured glasses.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

I haven't played outdoors in the winter? Ummm, what does that mean? Play what? Yes, I have played outdoors in the winter, in the snow, in competition, here in Canada, and no, it doesn't promote good quality. But that probably isn't what you meant. What did you mean?

I've played outdoors more often than you think and the quality can still be good. It just seems you just a weak person.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Excuses? More like explanations, and that isn't just semantics. And check your facts (or lack thereof) before immediately dismissing people. My facts are the most up-to-date available, and as such, I can speak with confidence.

Cowards like you hold us back. The faster we get people like you out of the way, the better off we all will be.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

This is much like the last time we strongly disagreed...Commonwealth Stadium, wasn't it? And the ownership group...they were the right owners, weren't they?

Once again you didn't read my posts. You can't even prove that I supported the ownwership plan. Commonwealth Stadium remains the only option for soccer in this city given what else we have for stadiums in this city (garbage).

quote:Originally posted by fishman

I am not trying to get into a mud-slinging match with you, but it frustrates me when you fail to grasp the underlying issue in the debate. My central point is that soccer is a thriving sport in this country at the youth level, and is destined to remain so. If professional soccer is to succeed, it needs to embrace the amateur ranks, not vice-versa. It needs to sell itself to the public, it needs to educate the players at a young age, it needs to have proper planning and include the soccer-mad during its genesis.

That means squat. Amateur soccer needs to get in line behind the pros if it wants to survive. Don't even try and debate that.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Youth soccer has grown DESPITE not having a professional league to which players can aspire. I wonder what it might do if a league did pop up and properly market itself.

Soccer growth is just a bubble. It's going to burst without a pro league in place. I'm not going to wait 50 years for amateur soccer to sort itself out.

If you don't like it, get out of the way.

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"If you don't like it get out of the way"

Come on DoyleG, you are making yourself look like an ass. Fishman is expressing some valid opinion - which is the whole point of forums like this.

I don't believe for a second that amateur soccer needs pro soccer clubs in Canada to thrive. Other than the Raptors, there is no pro basketball in Canada. There is no pro Volleyball. These sports are huge in our school systems.

I do hope pro-soccer gains a strong following and becomes a major spectator sport in this country, but I believe an Annual Open Cup is a more important (and much less expensive) step.

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DoyleG, if you must resort to calling people names...

You stated that "(y)ou can't be sure of getting that much time in most of Europe since they play in the winter."

Exactly...if they play in the winter, presumably the summer would provide some reasonable weather in which to train, correct? We don't train outdoors during the winter, albeit for parts of British Columbia.

Further, you mention that "(w)inter doesn't always mean snow numpty. They generally don't have alternative facilities to train in when they weather goes bad."

Winter doesn't always mean snow, EXCEPT FOR IN ALMOST ALL OF CANADA. We are talking about our country, aren't we? And don't I intimate that because winter in most of Europe, Latin and South America, Asia, Africa (which certainly does not have a definable winter), Australia, and much of North America is snow-free (except for freakish occurances) that they have a huge leg-up?

The need for alternative facilities isn't required in countries where their weather permits outdoor play for most of the year. And those countries that do have difficult conditions have installed many, many pitches of new-generation artificial turf (see Finland). How many fields do we have with this turf? How many provide protection from sub-sub-zero temperatures? Outside the Toronto area?

Ahead, but now behind some of the countries that you mentioned? Two of the countries - Japan and Korea (which one, by the way? North or South?) - enjoyed a huge economic boost from a co-hosted World Cup. And if you were to travel there, you would find facility upon facility of Field Turf; many of these have roofs and collapsable sides. But hey, they are wimps, right?

The quality experienced outdoors playing in snow and sleet promotes hard work, but not the technique required to play at the highest level. Canadian players are known to have great work ethic (see hockey), but their skill on the ball generally is sub-standard. And all the playing on rubbish, frozen fields, or, worse yet, on bumpy, muddy pitches in the dead of winter is not going to change that. Sorry.

With respect to Canada's international standing relative to other comparable countries...Canada has underachieved recently, but one must put into context the FIFA system of ranking. Canada does not play weaker opposition as often as it might, for when it does play at home, it needs name opponents to sell tickets. As such, the results of those games hurts our country's standing. I do agree that Canada has slipped from its position in the top 50ish in the world (wow).

You said 10 years ago...again, check your facts, please. Of the countries you listed, only China and South Africa were "behind" Canada, if one uses the FIFA stats. Well...China was deeply frozen in communism, and had yet to embrace soccer as it has recently (oh yeah, they do have more than a billion people) and South Africa? Ummm, the blacks began voting there that year; they had finally got out from beneath the brutal apartheid regime. Pretty stable environment, huh? Conducive to soccer and national team results.

More countries competitive in hockey? What does that mean? Does it mean that more of the countries that do compete on the ice have competitive teams vis-a-vis soccer? Well, check the relative GDP of those countries regularly playing hockey, and then take a look at soccer. Northern countries play hockey, and northern countries generally have higher standards of living and can afford facilities in which to train (ice making plants aren't cheap). But then again, my closed mind can't grasp geo-politics.

On the economic, political and cultural hegemony of the United States...please, please don't engage me in that debate, because this is a soccer forum. And I doubt you would wish to discuss that issue with me. it would require close scrutiny of facts, figures, statistics, anecdotal evidence and scouring alternative media for sources. Armchair pundits need not apply.

Cowardice is not my stock. I am actively involved in soccer coaching and administration at provincial and national levels, so again, don't tell me to get out of the way. I work many hundreds of hours, much of it unpaid, with grassroots, club, elite and college level athletes and organizations. I am actually one of the people trying to make a difference, not merely spewing forth opinion. My opinions are based on experience, education and consultation, and moreover, I act locally and (so far as Canada is concerned) globally.

Lastly...did I read your posts? Why, yes I did. I might not any longer, as I no longer find them interesting, amusing or informative. But, much like a car crash, sometimes we can't help ourselves...we just stop and stare.

But indeed you did offer at least some support for the ownership group / plan...logically, what else would one infer from the following statements, made by you, in this forum:

Posted - 07/16/2004 "We have the right owners. Single ownership has been why soccer in Edmonton has failed in the past. They should have people who are passionate about the sport running things. Not those who treat it as a business."

Hey, DoyleG, maybe they should have treated it as a business...as the owners themselves said, they were soccer dads and moms, and had they been business like, they would have done things differently...too bad they were emotionally attached, or they might not have expected 10,000+ at the stadium. And don't deny they said that...that wasn't a 3 year goal...it was the immediate need to even break even. Or I suppose you are going to call Tom Newton and the other owners liars about that one.

Further:

Posted - 07/17/2004  "I answered that already that the kind of owners needed are in place. What is your problem in understanding that?"

And:

Posted - 06/06/2004 "EMSA has a larger talent pool to choose from. Who on earth would want to put up with a bunch of elitest anyhow. EMSA provides a much better business plan to work from."

Or:

Posted - 06/06/2004 MY POST "Can you just admit that this Aviator venture is flawed?" ...to which you replied...

"Sad to see reality hasn't caught up to you yet."

Reality just caught you. I rest my case.

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quote:Originally posted by martin lechelt

"If you don't like it get out of the way"

Come on DoyleG, you are making yourself look like an ass. Fishman is expressing some valid opinion - which is the whole point of forums like this.

Your saying Fishman has points. The problem is that he's of the type we don't need. The onyl way to get things done is to take a radical approach. The excxuses of the past are becoming more out-of-date as the years go on. I'd rather not be in the position of having to say "I Told You So".

quote:Originally posted by martin lechelt

I don't believe for a second that amateur soccer needs pro soccer clubs in Canada to thrive. Other than the Raptors, there is no pro basketball in Canada. There is no pro Volleyball. These sports are huge in our school systems.

No one gives a damn about a bunch of rich babies in TO. We've seen other Canadian cities support pro basketball in the past (WBL, NBL, CBL etc.) and they know that a pro national league can make an impact. The same with volleyball apllies. Yet we still have to deal with the fact that the "status quo" will remain in place for a long time. Why? People are too timid to take risks.

quote:Originally posted by martin lechelt

"I do hope pro-soccer gains a strong following and becomes a major spectator sport in this country, but I believe an Annual Open Cup is a more important (and much less expensive) step.

You point out you would want an Open Cup. The amateur teams have their own cup, which gives them no reason to suport such a venture. The only way your going to have an Open Cup is to force them into it, which no one is willing to do.

This gives better proof that a pro league will work better than an Open Cup.

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maybe just maybe...

we need to look at the norwegian or danish pro leagues as possible success bars in this country, instead of looking at Italy, Spain, England or even the MLS. If we can get teams drawing 5k a game, we should all get up and thank the gods.

Develop and then sell.

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DoyleG, I guess I am the kind that we (Canada?) don't need. So, am I then to believe you are the type of person soccer in Canada needs?

We need professional soccer, to be sure, as that would have a positive impact on the quality of our national teams. However, if that is to happen, I believe the opposite of your approach is required...the professional sides need to embrace the youth, not vise-versa.

We have seen the fruits of "if you build it, they will come." This ain't a cornfield in some Kinsella book, my friend.

If professional soccer is to succeed in this country, it needs to appeal to the youngsters...period. It needs marketing that targets its intended audience. Do you understand that? Professional teams need to sell tickets - it has a product that needs consumers to buy into.

Your "radical" approach (whatever that may be, as you have yet to articulate it...rather, you choose to incoherently slice and dice others, never really offering viable solutions to the problems you identify), regardless of what it is, cannot ignore that for an entity to be solvent, it must capture consumers and keep them.

But I suppose your radical idea is "you had better come, because you need us more than we need you, so...ummmmm....come. And because you will come, we will lease out a massive stadium. And bring your mom and dad, too."

And you call me the numpty...

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quote:Originally posted by fishman

You stated that "(y)ou can't be sure of getting that much time in most of Europe since they play in the winter."

Exactly...if they play in the winter, presumably the summer would provide some reasonable weather in which to train, correct? We don't train outdoors during the winter, albeit for parts of British Columbia.

When I said most of Europe I SAID MOST OF EUROPE. Many of the leagues play in the summer and use the winter for training and to concentrate on other competitons. You also seem to forget that UEFA begins a number of their club competitions in the summer, which leaves little time for training.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Further, you mention that "(w)inter doesn't always mean snow numpty. They generally don't have alternative facilities to train in when they weather goes bad."

Winter doesn't always mean snow, EXCEPT FOR IN ALMOST ALL OF CANADA. We are talking about our country, aren't we? And don't I intimate that because winter in most of Europe, Latin and South America, Asia, Africa (which certainly does not have a definable winter), Australia, and much of North America is snow-free (except for freakish occurances) that they have a huge leg-up?

Once again, you show your lack of comprehension. Just because a country doesn't get snow doesn't mean they don't get winter. They have rain and lots of it coming down on them.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

The need for alternative facilities isn't required in countries where their weather permits outdoor play for most of the year. And those countries that do have difficult conditions have installed many, many pitches of new-generation artificial turf (see Finland). How many fields do we have with this turf? How many provide protection from sub-sub-zero temperatures? Outside the Toronto area?

You make it sound like the cold is a bad thing. Seems your nothing but a weakling when it comes to winter. The last several winters weren't that bad and people were playing soccer outdoors on grass well into November for the fun of it.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Ahead, but now behind some of the countries that you mentioned? Two of the countries - Japan and Korea (which one, by the way? North or South?) - enjoyed a huge economic boost from a co-hosted World Cup. And if you were to travel there, you would find facility upon facility of Field Turf; many of these have roofs and collapsable sides. But hey, they are wimps, right?

Once again, your showing your lack of intelligence. They benefited from having their national leagues professionalized. Yet you go off into something about training facilities. Try and learn to stay on track with you mind.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

The quality experienced outdoors playing in snow and sleet promotes hard work, but not the technique required to play at the highest level. Canadian players are known to have great work ethic (see hockey), but their skill on the ball generally is sub-standard. And all the playing on rubbish, frozen fields, or, worse yet, on bumpy, muddy pitches in the dead of winter is not going to change that. Sorry.

Then bring in coaches that know how to train. Quite making hay about poor facilties. Other countries have worse facilities but yet produce better players. Try venting your energies somehwere else.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

With respect to Canada's international standing relative to other comparable countries...Canada has underachieved recently, but one must put into context the FIFA system of ranking. Canada does not play weaker opposition as often as it might, for when it does play at home, it needs name opponents to sell tickets. As such, the results of those games hurts our country's standing. I do agree that Canada has slipped from its position in the top 50ish in the world (wow).

Funny that you take such rankings by FIFA so seriously.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

You said 10 years ago...again, check your facts, please. Of the countries you listed, only China and South Africa were "behind" Canada, if one uses the FIFA stats. Well...China was deeply frozen in communism, and had yet to embrace soccer as it has recently (oh yeah, they do have more than a billion people) and South Africa? Ummm, the blacks began voting there that year; they had finally got out from beneath the brutal apartheid regime. Pretty stable environment, huh? Conducive to soccer and national team results.

Once again, your showing your stupidity. Any match against the Aussies, Japanese, South Africans, Chinese, or Koreans would've meant a good chance of wins for us. We were eliminated by the Aussies from '94 WCQ on penalty kicks. We split a friendly series with South Korea in 1993.

If the games were to happen today, we would struggle to keep up. Why is that? They have professional leagues that allow them to take the best in youth and play at a high level. This is why Japan and South Korea are powers and Australia is fighting it out with the best.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

More countries competitive in hockey? What does that mean? Does it mean that more of the countries that do compete on the ice have competitive teams vis-a-vis soccer? Well, check the relative GDP of those countries regularly playing hockey, and then take a look at soccer. Northern countries play hockey, and northern countries generally have higher standards of living and can afford facilities in which to train (ice making plants aren't cheap). But then again, my closed mind can't grasp geo-politics.

45 countries play at the highest level the IIHF offers. I can name of 16 nations at least that are competitive when they play each other (that's being conservative) with others moving up the ladder. Such you can't tell the difference.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

On the economic, political and cultural hegemony of the United States...please, please don't engage me in that debate, because this is a soccer forum. And I doubt you would wish to discuss that issue with me. it would require close scrutiny of facts, figures, statistics, anecdotal evidence and scouring alternative media for sources. Armchair pundits need not apply.

Japan and Taiwan have a bigger reach than America does. Europe has a reach that matches America. You seem to forget that sports reached parts of the world thanks to the Asians and Europeans, not the Americans.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Cowardice is not my stock. I am actively involved in soccer coaching and administration at provincial and national levels, so again, don't tell me to get out of the way. I work many hundreds of hours, much of it unpaid, with grassroots, club, elite and college level athletes and organizations. I am actually one of the people trying to make a difference, not merely spewing forth opinion. My opinions are based on experience, education and consultation, and moreover, I act locally and (so far as Canada is concerned) globally.

Yet you identify yourself as part of the problem by dismissing those who demand more. Your one of those who refuse to deliver.

Yet, it's hard to belive where you are when you can't grasp common English, as is shown below.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Lastly...did I read your posts? Why, yes I did. I might not any longer, as I no longer find them interesting, amusing or informative. But, much like a car crash, sometimes we can't help ourselves...we just stop and stare.

But indeed you did offer at least some support for the ownership group / plan...logically, what else would one infer from the following statements, made by you, in this forum:

Posted - 07/16/2004 "We have the right owners. Single ownership has been why soccer in Edmonton has failed in the past. They should have people who are passionate about the sport running things. Not those who treat it as a business."

Hey, DoyleG, maybe they should have treated it as a business...as the owners themselves said, they were soccer dads and moms, and had they been business like, they would have done things differently...too bad they were emotionally attached, or they might not have expected 10,000+ at the stadium. And don't deny they said that...that wasn't a 3 year goal...it was the immediate need to even break even. Or I suppose you are going to call Tom Newton and the other owners liars about that one.

Once again, you would rather us go through the same cycle of a single owner taking losses on his own and fold the team after a couple of years. Calgary is table with and ownership group and Montreal is growing with an ownership group in place.Yet you need passion for the sport if you want it to be sucessful.

Yet you still can't prove that I supported their plan. I predicted a lower attendance average on other boards than what they said. Please use you brain for once.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Posted - 07/17/2004  "I answered that already that the kind of owners needed are in place. What is your problem in understanding that?"

Once again, you still can't figure what I said. You have a high school diploma don't you?

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Posted - 06/06/2004 "EMSA has a larger talent pool to choose from. Who on earth would want to put up with a bunch of elitest anyhow. EMSA provides a much better business plan to work from."

The EMSA allows the team to set up youth development under their banner in return for their support. Why didn't the EIYSA come up with a similar offer to the Aviators? Why don't you try and answer that since you claim to be Mr Know-it-All.

quote:Originally posted by fishman

Posted - 06/06/2004 MY POST "Can you just admit that this Aviator venture is flawed?" ...to which you replied...

"Sad to see reality hasn't caught up to you yet."

Reality just caught you. I rest my case.

The reality is the team is still playing and will play on till the season ends. If it was flawed, the team would've been folded already.

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quote:Originally posted by fishman

DoyleG, I guess I am the kind that we (Canada?) don't need. So, am I then to believe you are the type of person soccer in Canada needs?

We need professional soccer, to be sure, as that would have a positive impact on the quality of our national teams. However, if that is to happen, I believe the opposite of your approach is required...the professional sides need to embrace the youth, not vise-versa.

We have seen the fruits of "if you build it, they will come." This ain't a cornfield in some Kinsella book, my friend.

If professional soccer is to succeed in this country, it needs to appeal to the youngsters...period. It needs marketing that targets its intended audience. Do you understand that? Professional teams need to sell tickets - it has a product that needs consumers to buy into.

Your "radical" approach (whatever that may be, as you have yet to articulate it...rather, you choose to incoherently slice and dice others, never really offering viable solutions to the problems you identify), regardless of what it is, cannot ignore that for an entity to be solvent, it must capture consumers and keep them.

But I suppose your radical idea is "you had better come, because you need us more than we need you, so...ummmmm....come. And because you will come, we will lease out a massive stadium. And bring your mom and dad, too."

And you call me the numpty...

Yes, you are a numpty. Your no different than those execs on the CSA board.

Pro embrace youth: tried and failed.

Time for Youth to embrace pro. No more excuses.

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

maybe just maybe...

we need to look at the norwegian or danish pro leagues as possible success bars in this country, instead of looking at Italy, Spain, England or even the MLS. If we can get teams drawing 5k a game, we should all get up and thank the gods.

Develop and then sell.

The best case would be for an A-League PLUS. A level of play that is still below MLS but better than what is in the A-League.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Yes, you are a numpty. Your no different than those execs on the CSA board.

Pro embrace youth: tried and failed.

Time for Youth to embrace pro. No more excuses.

what do you mean by embrace youth ...

admittedly, youth soccer has done nothing for pro soccer BUT ...

what exactly has pro soccer done for youth soccer ...

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As I mentioned, akin to a car crash...

A quick preface...do not question my grasp of the English language, nor my intelligence; further, my level of education surely is none of your business. However, I am quite confident that it exceeds yours...I can only arrive at that conclusion given your ramblings and admissions. I will leave it at that.

I would probably compare your attacks to what one experiences at the coffee shops of old...a whack of curmudgeons, all pontificating and philosophizing, with nary a leg on which to stand. But it is a democracy, although I do sometimes wonder why we prescribe equality of franchise, based on your approach to this forum.

I have no issue with a difference of opinion - but clearly, you do. It is next to impossible to engage in a friendly debate, so I shall proceed on the premise that you only post as you do as it brings a smile to your face. You must enjoy getting a rise out of people, and hope that in some small way, you work your way beneath their skin.

I say this - that you act the fool so as to irritate and inflame - because that would show intelligence and wit on your part. I would accept this commentary if I were you, because a refusal would bring us back to the initial position held by more than just me...that you play the Devil's advocate, and have no position or intelligent defence thereof.

I could go and dissect every comment you made - as you do with me, and others - but that would be an effort in futility. You would only then repeat the process, ad naseum, ad infinitum. And that is such a bore.

I will leave you with this one pearl...I hope you do accept it...

Before commenting on a person's grasp of "common English", please ensure that you can spell, and that you understand the difference between the possessive form of "you" and the contraction of "you are".

When you call others stupid, bring into question their schooling, challenge their comprehension, you in turn ask others to do the same with you. Failure to permit such action would leave you as being described as a hypocrite.

Did you want to try that label on for size?

And please leave this forum as a place for an exchange of soccer-related ideas. Others are challenged, and quite often accept correction, or after time proves their position faulty, they change their mind. That, Mr. DoyleG, is a sign not only of intelligence, but humility.

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putting on my mod hat...

Ahem.. Let's keep this thread on topic shall we? If this degenerates into a name calling match (even a highbrow one) I'll be forced to lock the thread. Differences of opinion are fine, but let's not stray down the path of calling each other's intelligence/education/language grasp into question.

Also, as a matter of netiquette, please only quote when absolutely necessary. As long as the thread is on topic, people realize to what you are replying. Excessive quoting not only makes a thread tedious to read through, but also puts a strain on the server/database resources.

Thank you,

The Thought Police

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Well, some of the decisions made by the ownership group was simply mind boggling.

Even MLS, with its deep pockets and teams in larger urban centers, has had to sustain a lot of losses and they are indeed the first class league in North America.

You can't just create a sporting franchise and call it first class and expect people to come rushing to it. The tickets prices for individual games (not packages) were also poorly chosen. $20/game is probably a bit too much to ask.

Hopefully if the Edmonton team will have an owner, they'll be a little more intelligent in their approach next time around. Look around at the different models here in Canada (Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto and Montreal) and learn from their experiences and results and build based on that and not some one-off tournament like the U-19 tournament.

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Back to the topic of this post...and laserk's insight, and other comments about the EMSA / Aviators partnership.

I can't remember who jokingly talked about the conspiracy thing relative to the ASA President's email address, etc..

But if you want something to think about...Mr. Charpentier is listed in the following Alberta Soccer Association capacities:

2nd Vice President; Executive / Finance Committee; Coach and Player Development Committee; Discipline Committee; and as the Pro Team Liaison.

He obviously puts in massive amounts of work in all of these portfolios, not to mention in the role as president of EMSA. But it does add a bit of credence to laserk's assertion that the eventual evolution, according the EMSA's plan, is to gain sole control over Tier I and II play in Edmonton. Mr. Charpentier does wield a lot of power currently, and by having an interest in professional play in the city, it would appear that it was another way to force young players in EMSA's direction at the expense of EIYSA.

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Life is messy and there are always two sides to a story, but Laserk's post hits the heart of what many people in Edmonton believe. There is a belief in the EIYSA crowd that Charpentier and EMSA are outta control.

Virtually all "house league", non-competitive youth soccer is played inside EMSA in Edmonton (there are some non-affiliated programs but they are tiny). House league kids comprise the vast majority of EMSA teams, yet do not get the attention they deserve due to the disproportionate energy put into the top tiers by EMSA and the member zones [my own and a common opinion]. Charpentier et al have the belief that the top tiers need to fully integrated with the house leagues to provide a fully systemitized (sp?) approach to youth development. EIYSA clubs think this is crap as they have been the "next step" for talented house leaguers for the last twenty years.

Attempts at mediation of these positions repeatedly fail. One thing is clear though and that is EMSA's overt use of their power [including leveraging their agreement with the Aviators to compel wanna be Aviator youth players to register in EMSA] to try to lure top tier players out of EIYSA. The result? Confusion for players/parents, diluted quality in both EIYSA and EMSA, and frustration for everyone.

I actually believe Charpentier means well - but he is way over his head and EMSA actions are damaging soccer development in Edmonton.

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quote:Originally posted by Ashton Gate

... It is taking the high road to say that we believe Mr. Charpentier means well and is a crusader for the good of the youth game...

I was being nice since this thread already degenerated terribly with the inarticulate rants of DoyleG. Your points are important Ashton and part of the seemingly endless layers of problems being created by Charpentier's EMSA.

Perhaps we need to round up a bunch of bodies to attend the next EMSA annual meeting. I have kids in both systems, so have a legimate reason to air some beefs. One or two questions about EMSA behaviour could be brushed off fairly easily by Charpentier et al, but a sustained line of serious questioning by a large number of people might make a good impact. Any other Edmontonians with an interest in taking EMSA to task??

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quote:Originally posted by martin lechelt

Attempts at mediation of these positions repeatedly fail. One thing is clear though and that is EMSA's overt use of their power [including leveraging their agreement with the Aviators to compel wanna be Aviator youth players to register in EMSA] to try to lure top tier players out of EIYSA. The result? Confusion for players/parents, diluted quality in both EIYSA and EMSA, and frustration for everyone.

I don't disagree with you, but one way EIYSA could have neutralized the influemce of EMSA on the Aviators would have been to enter into the same arrangement with the Aviators. I heard an interview with the EIYSA Executive Director, who indicated that EIYSA did not believe in subsidizing pro-soccer in principle. This seemed to me an odd position, given that a greater proportion of EIYSA players would make Aviator development teams, and it's not as if anyone has actually made a nickel in profit on pro soccer in Canada anyway. I suspect that the EMSA/EIYSA split is yet another reason for potential owners of Edmonton FC to shy away. Too bad.:(

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quote:Originally posted by zico

... I don't disagree with you, but one way EIYSA could have neutralized the influemce of EMSA on the Aviators would have been to enter into the same arrangement with the Aviators...

Agreed. EIYSA should have jumped on the offer. However, this doesn't excuse EMSA's behaviour in any way. In hindsight, perhaps EIYSA was being more realistic about their ability to commit their entire membership to such a deal. EMSA committed to the deal (feeding into the owners confidence about their business plan), absolutely failed to deliver when the zones balked and now is walking away saying they didn't promise anything. Total hogwash - Charpentier should be ashamed and this is reason enough for him to resign.

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Slightly off this topic...everyone enjoys an aside now and then though, I offer up the following analysis of the comparative results from the indoor soccer season just past. It was one of much controversy since EMSA forced Edmonton Soccer Facilities to take away the times that EIYSA had traditionally used for the last 10 years or so and relentlessly forced EIYSA teams to 5:30 to 6:30 pm starts which were very difficult for parents & players.

You can imagine an EIYSA parent living in St. Albert but perhaps working in Edmonton having to leave work, drive to St. Albert to pick up their child on winter roads and then drive at rush hour to the East Soccer Centre for a 5:30 pm start. I have nothing but admiration for the EIYSA parents who showed their committment and resolve to their Club side by putting up with this. It reminds me a bit of the British resolve in WWII to withstand the terror they were going through despite the odds stacked against them. It may be a bit of an overstatement, but if Mr. Charpentier thought he could inconvenience EIYSA players and parents into abandoning EIYSA he must now know it had quite the opposite effect.

**********

Ran some quick stats from the Indoor Provincial results so we have an idea how each group fared:

Tier 1 & 2

EMSA

Gold: 1

Silver: 1

Bronze: 2

EIYSA

Gold: 8

Silver: 10

Bronze: 2

CMSA

Gold: 5

Silver: 3

Bronze: 6

Lakeland

Gold: 1

Silver: 0

Bronze: 1

From this I conclude that EMSA is doing about as well as Lakeland when it comes to results. Their concentration on Tier 1 & 2, their vaunted Aviator program, their buying teams and players has gotten them all the way up to the same approximate status as Lakeland. My conclusion: either Lakeland is doing something really right or EMSA is doing it wrong. The next set of stats is even more telling:

Tier 3 & 4

EMSA

Gold: 5

Silver: 3

Bronze: 2

CMSA

Gold: 7

Silver: 5

Bronze: 9

Lakeland

Gold: 3

Silver: 4

Bronze: 0

If you use the scale of gold=3, silver=2, bronze=1:

EMSA = 21

CMSA = 40

Lakeland = 17

To me this suggests that by putting their energies into Tier 1 & 2, and abandoning their Tier 3 & 4, despite buying into all these great facilities etc. it just gave Calgary the opening to double Edmonton’s results despite their facility handicaps. Even lowly Lakeland can now claim to be the equivalent of Edmonton at this level. Shame on EMSA....I think EIYSA should integrate with Lakeland...they seem to be on the right track and we should keep a wary eye on those losers at EMSA.

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