Cheeta Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Well since a way confident we'll get the result at Swangard I say screw Frankie, here's my picks. But 1st, a few wee thoughts. Aguir!!. Thanks. That was a good one:D Glad to see Menezes still has the confidense of the board. Dought we'll see him more than once or twice though. Nsaliwa's under contract now, assuming Bircham'll be fit, and Hume's suspension, here goes. ----Onstad---- Diesel--JDV--Hutch--Jazic Nsaliwa--Bircham--DeGuzman--Brennan Radz.---DeRosario (maybe Pesch) Hirshfeld, McKenna, Klukowski, Bernier, Imhof, Pesch., Occean. 4-4-2, use the touchlines for attack. Run, run, run. DeGuzman can man-mark Ruiz all over the fu'king place. If he get's pulled out of possition don't give it another thought. Stick on him until he's cranky and forgotten. Bircham can switch off and play him tight if DeGuzman joins the rush. Let Bircham and The Guz just lay the boots to Ruiz until they get carded, sub Imhof for Bircham early 2nd half and bring McKenna on later 2nd as Guatemala's back men tire or get sub'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadienfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Hey Dave and Mjoni you've got 19 players listed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 quote:Originally posted by matthew -----------------Onstad Stalteri-----Menezes--DeVos----Jazic --DeRosario------Imhof------Brennan ----------------DeGuzman ------Peschisolido-----Radzinski Bench: Hirschfeld, McKenna, Klukowski, Hutchinson, Bircham, Bernier, Occean. Right on, Matthew. Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I think the above is the best lineup we can field for a game that's only a month away. McKenna and Bircham both get subbed on for a good part of the 2nd half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I think we need to go for height first up front, so an unorthodox lineup from me: McKenna starting up front. His presence will open up spaces for Radz as they may even have to double up on him on the high balls. We lose touch with him but most of our strikers are smaller, quick and better with space, and I don't think we'll have it as long as we're still drawn at Swangard. Remember, at kick off the result is bad for us and good for them. Unless someone can convince me that Occean can do the same job as Kevin this is how I'd do it. It is when we get a goal up that we can run at them, when they have to open up a bit. Meaning sub out McKenna for Pesch. So... ------Onstad Imhof---De Vos----Menezes----Jazic Bircham/de Rosario---Stalteri---De Guzman---Brennan ---Radzinski----McKenna My only doubt is on the right midfield. Really don't have a solution for that, but would be nice to have a better crosser in there. With this line-up we put our talent in the middle, as Guatemala won't work the wings that much and we need to deal with their midfield passing game and slower build up. Head on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 forgive me, what club does peters play for and is he in the first team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror forgive me, what club does peters play for and is he in the first team? Jamie Peters - FC Kaiserslauten - U19 team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcaout Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 My picks ..............Onstad .Stalteri.DeVos©.Menezes.Jazic ..............Bircham ..........................Brennan .de Rosario...De Guzman ......Occean.......Radzinski Bench: Simpson, Mckenna, Hutchinson, Imhof, Bernier, Pesch, Hirsch I say Bircham as a D-mid player. For me Bircham adds a lot of character and even leadership to a MNT that doesn't know each other as well as others in the world. I figure Bircham's the key for building unity and I say he needs to do that on the field. Brennan is a regular left sided player. DD would be more of a roving ride sided player. He'd push up a lot, leaving space for Stalteri to move up and support, but he'd be responsible for tracking back which i'm sure he'll be able to do. De Guzman would have a similar roving role but in the central areas. He can drop back to help Bircham but mostly he'd be pulling the strings just behind the attackers. Up front I pick Occean from the start for 2 reasons. 1. I like a striker mix Occean should be able to do the job in the air to help Radz, and have the movement to work with Rads on the deck. I wouldn't start Pesch because he and Radz are to similar and I like Mckenna to be on the bench as both offensive and defensive cover. 2. I haven't seen Occean but lots of people are saying he should be in this team. He's playing at a good club level, and he's got the skills and build of a good target player, which is what we need. If he's such hot ****e I say give a chance to prove it. If he's complete crap the Pesch or Mckenna or a re-jinking of the system leaves other attacking options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 Who are your subs, Jeffrey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotas Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Hirschfeld Onstad Menezes Stalteri DeVos McKenna Jazic Imhof Brennan DeGuzman Bircham Simpson Hutchinson Bernier DeRosario Occean Radzinski Peschisolido From the developmental team I'd say only Occean, Menezes, and Simpson. I don't believe any 17 year old is ready to make their full international debut, especially in a WCQ. Starting 11: ..................................Onstand..................................... ......Stalteri.............McKenna(Sub: Menezes)........DeVos..................Jazic...... .............................Bircham(Sub: Hutchinson)....................... DeRo........................................................................Brennan .....................................DeGuzman.......................................... ...........................Radzinski...................Pesch (Sub: Occean)................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I am not convinced that the games played by the development team are true tests. Two teams at the very beginning of their preseason training cannot be used as evidence enough to warrant dropping anyone. However, I am worried enough about the centre of the defence that I would consider Menezes to fill that hole. He has experience and is really coming back to the National team. Simpson, from all accounts has great speed and good skill. But because of his lack of experience, I think he is on the bench to begin with. One other addition over the Belize series is Nsaliwa. Nsaliwa has played at a high level last year. He had a bit of a rough go late but still overall had a good year. The fact that he has National Team experience and appears to be considered very highly by Saarbrucken on his return there. I expect he has gotten over his injuries. Maybe not this time but I think he is one of our starters IMHO. Goalkeepers Onstad Hirshfeld Defenders Stalteri DeVos Jazic Menezes Klukowski Imhof Midfield De Guzman Brennan Hutchinson Nsaliwa Bircham Simpson Forward Radzinski DeRosario McKenna Peschisolido My Starting 11 Goal: Onstad Central Defence: DeVos Menezes Fullbacks Imhof Jazic Midfield: DeGuzman Stalteri Hutchinson or Bircham Brennan Forwards: Radzinski DeRosario Occean and Peters are potential additions later. However, I think Peters needs to be allow get established in Germany. Occean can be also be called upon later when other in Europe are in the heat of their seasons and he is finished his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Starters: Pesch Radz Brennan De Guzman Imhof De Rosario Jazic De Vos McKenna Stalteri Hirshfeld Bench Occean Simpson Hutchinson Bircham Nsaliwa Klukowski Menezes Onstad Nice to have some depth for a change, as I'm leaving a lot of players off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadienfan Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Yeah it's finally hard to pick 18 guys for a Canadian roster. That's great! You got 20 guys named Gian Luca! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosehead Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 "Occean and Peters are potential additions later. However, I think Peters needs to be allow get established in Germany. Occean can be also be called upon later when other in Europe are in the heat of their seasons and he is finished his..." It seems that Occean is a very strong talent now and has the scoring ability, using him later maybe no use if we fail to get a good result against Guatemala. Its all fine for Peters to get his career established in Germany while again we fail to qualify for the world cup. The question with Peters is is he the one of kind players where experience is not so much of a factor. I'm thinking on the lines of an Owen and Rooney where when the played in the World Cup and European Championships and age and experience was not really an issue. That's why I think we should be looking at talent and what they can offer and not how old they are. Maybe certain positions this is a factor or for leadership roles, but certainly their should be some spots open for youthful raw talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I agree that we go with the best talent. But the best talent should also not be based on two meaningless games. It is true that the Canadian developmental side played well from all accounts. However, I would like to see Occean and Peters play a full international first before staking our WCQ on them. Secondly, I think it is also prudent to introduce one or two new players at a time. The first two introduced are Menezes and Simpson. Menezes has experience so not really a big risk and Simpson is basically unproven at this level. Sorry but playing two games against two preseason teams lacking in game fitness is not a true test. Belize wasn't much of a test either. There are other players that are young and have proven themselves at a higher level. Objectively, I would go with the best talent but tested somewhat. When Peters shows that he can play against harden professionals in real games; then, he would get the call. Occean is an option but I would prefer to wait a little with him and introduce him in another game since this one I have given to Simpson. quote:Originally posted by Moosehead "Occean and Peters are potential additions later. However, I think Peters needs to be allow get established in Germany. Occean can be also be called upon later when other in Europe are in the heat of their seasons and he is finished his..." It seems that Occean is a very strong talent now and has the scoring ability, using him later maybe no use if we fail to get a good result against Guatemala. Its all fine for Peters to get his career established in Germany while again we fail to qualify for the world cup. The question with Peters is is he the one of kind players where experience is not so much of a factor. I'm thinking on the lines of an Owen and Rooney where when the played in the World Cup and European Championships and age and experience was not really an issue. That's why I think we should be looking at talent and what they can offer and not how old they are. Maybe certain positions this is a factor or for leadership roles, but certainly their should be some spots open for youthful raw talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 What is with the Peters obsession? He's 17. As far as I understand it he's nowhere near the first team at Kaiserslautern. Nothing wrong with that. That's a good place to be at 17. But if you've never played first team professional soccer, I don't understand why anyone would pick them to play in a WCQ. We're not that badly off. Moosehead you picked Mesut Mert ahead of Klukowski and Bircham. You rate Occean ahead of Pesch. You are advocating for talent, but personally I think you're picking vastly less talented players. It's precisely because these games are so important that I think this desire from some to change four or five players (while dropping players who have proven the ability to get the job done internationally and for their clubs in favour of guys that have proven nothing but that they can look good against somewhat decent British teams in pre-season form) is completely ludicrous. Occean should be in the team. Simply because he is in good form and is our fifth best forward. When our third/fourth best forward goes out, he's a good replacement. We need a central defender so there's some room there to make a switch, esp since Watson is old. After that we have guys outside of the 18 (Bent, Nsaliwa) who I would rate as much better players than any of the midfielders we had in Vancouver except Simpson. And I still suspect Bent and Nsaliwa are right now (and that's important because Simpson is coming on leaps and bounds) better than Simpson and definitely more ready for the pressure cooker that is WCQ. Atiba Hutchinson was one of the best players in the entire U20 tourney last time. As a 17-year-old he was barely a starter at the previous U20. A year after being one of the best players at the U20s he apparently looked tentative and unsure of himself in Wales. He played very well against Belize, but didn't stand out anymore than anyone else. It's big steps . . . Peters didn't even make the last U20 team and yet he's four years ahead of Hutchinson in his development? I don't think so. The most important thing is that right now I trust Frank to make the right choices. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Moosehead [brPeters is is he the one of kind players where experience is not so much of a factor. I'm thinking on the lines of an Owen and Rooney where when the played in the World Cup and European Championships and age and experience was not really an issue. Hmmmmm!!!Your comparing Peter's to Owen and Rooney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Why is everyone picking Simpson to be on Yallop's squad? what has he done to be considered a full international playing with and against established professional players? Why was he never on anyone list before these two games? Obvigious, I did not see the two games against Milwall and Hearts but he must have been the second comming of Pele to suddenly get pencilled in by some as a starter whereas we wasn't ever mentioned before. Especially considering that he is in college. Worth repeating, these were two third tier british club sides in preseason form. Yallop is not going use these two games to reverse course on he views but rather to reinforce what he as already seen from players that he chose. I am sure that he will pick players from this B squad. But its not going to be players like Peters or Simpson. It wil be guys who will strenghten the depth of the squad. By many accounts, he (Simpson)had a good tournament in the UAE. I only saw him play against Spain and thought he was good. But so were 7-8 other guys on that day, some of whom were spectacular. Why is no one mentioning those guys. As I said, he was good, but I did not see anything that led me to believe that he close to being an international. Maybe in a few years he will. But what I saw was a guy with pace who liked to run at defenders. I did not see any magic from him in the way refinded and creative footwork. Matondo IMO was showed more in that area. But he too, like Simpson, needs to improve in other areas of their game. In fact I thought that these two players make for good conparaison because each appeared strong in areas where the other appeared to have shortcommings. By shortcommings, I don't mean POOR. I just mean maturity as a professional. Overall, I would have rated Matondo and Simpson equally based on what i saw that day. In short, both are very good prospects. BUt then why does no one have Matondo on their list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosehead Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 [Hmmmmm!!!Your comparing Peter's to Owen and Rooney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 17 isn't too young to be playing internationally. But 17 and no first team experience. That's too green. Especially for a World Cup qualifier. If it were 2002 and we were talking about a 17yo that did well in a B friendly I've be all for it, but not now. Not in this situation. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 Free Kick, All I can say is that if you had seen Peters and Simpson play you would understand. I think the best indication of exactly where we think Simpson is is the fact that nobody who actually saw the game had anything except blinding comments about him. Sure, question the level of preseason second level clubs but don't for a second think that the guys on our selection weren't fighting for spots, knowing full well that their impression could land them a spot qualifying. And in that climate, Occean, Simpson, and Peters jumped right out in the eyes of most, and most importantly in the eyes of Yallop who commented publicly about these guys. It doesn't matter if he came out of nowhere. And who cares where Matando is! I respect the thoughtful opinions of people on the board, but it seems ludicrous to argue against their inclusion if you haven't seen their play recently, not in bloody UAE, but here in Canada, this past week, in the spotlight under Yallop's watchful eye. And I know our talent pool has risen dramatically over the past year, but I really don't think a kid has to be as good as Pele or Rooney or Owen to crack the Canadian bench at 17. Hargreves could have been that guy for us. Peters still could be that guy. The Hume suspension means that Bircham is in the hotseat. We need proper cover for him (and by proper I mean a real rightside wing) in case of injury or a carding (which isn't unrealistic for Bircham against a team like Guatemala) and he doesn't need to play to be on the bench in case of emergency, gaining valuable experience. When would he get this kind of experience? If Hume was here this would be a moot point, but Peters' breakthrough and the suspension forces us to talk about what will hopefully be an important point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 But Nolando who were we playing? Last week, in Canada? A first division team without its best player and an SPL team. If Hearts are such great opponents why isn't anyone clamouring for Rhian Dodds? He plays that calibre every week . . . See my point is the UAE tourney was vastly superior competition where there was something on the line. Had Peters, Simpson, Occean, etc out-played the likes of Pesch, Bernier, Hutchinson, Bircham, etc against even competition then maybe you'd be on to something, but they didn't. In fact the only one who has played a first team game - Occean - got dropped after his first cap. Which makes me think that Frank didn't believe he was quite ready yet at that time. We don't need right side cover. I suspect DeRosario will start there. After that we have Imhof, Bircham, Stalteri, Hutchinson (WYC 01), Bernier and McKenna (Confed Cup) who have all played right mid at some point in a full international. We have options that have more skill and more experience than what you're proposing. I think we're better than needing to play someone who has never played first team soccer. I don't care how old they are. It is good that we have this kind of quality coming up and there's so many options, but I don't think we need to rush anyone and I think at this point Peters would be rushed. Simspon is probably ready, but I'm not sure it's the right circumstance. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I mostly agree with Matthew that however encouraging reports are on Peters he is probably not quite ready for 1st team. Simpson on the other hand seems close to ready, especially since we lack someone to take on defenders on the left after Brennan (having a good pre-season), as Jazic tends to be conservative and holds back. Just to be fair about Occean, we was not dropped after Wales. Simply he was only released for Wales by his club, would not have been permitted to leave for San José, and probably for club reasons again was not needed in Kingston with our three main strikers all there plus Hume, McKenna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 My point is not about the age of Peters. My concern is his lack of experience and the fact that I don't think we want to make wholesale changes to a team that did well in progressing past Belize. Granted Belize is not a true test. If we make changes they should be done gradually. Add a player or two at a time. Yes, skill is important. Minimizing errors becomes more important the higher the level of play. Greece did not win because they were the most highly skilled team in Europe. They won because they were well organized and made few mistakes. Adding too many players at a time increases the risk of mistakes. I would be more comfortable with Peters if I knew how he performs with a Rooney coming at him with a ball. How is he defensively? Midfielders need to be able to do both attack and defend. OMHO, it is far easier to introduce a young player at forward than at midfield or defence because mistakes tend to be less costly. That is not a slight against Peters at all. I would only like to see him play some games at the level we expect him to play before we stake our WCQ campaign on him. Choosing him ahead of De Guzman would be ridiculed across all of Europe. Imagine what the German press would think. A U-19 player at Kaiserslautern chosen ahead of a tested and respected Bundesliga player? There is no question that we have enormously talented young players coming up through the system now. Hume, Hutchinson, Peters, Edgar, De Jong, both De Guzmans, Nsaliwa, Dylan Hughes, Canizales, Ledgerwood, and Matondo among others. The challenge we face is making sure that they are introduced carefully when they are ready. I don't believe the skill of the Canadian side is a big issue in Concacaf. We are as talented as any team now. Just maybe not as deep as some. The real issue is being prepared properly and being organized. Making too many changes works against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Think I'll wade in a little. Good for Peters. No play on the National 1st team, though. A little proof at the club level first, thanks. Nobody rightfully ever won anything for a one-off display during a friendly. Here's a good analogie. Wouldn't you be far more comfortable with your daughter having a boyfiend 10 years older than her when she's, oh lets say 25, than if she were 17? Something about the differences between the decision making processes and maturity at the two ages. Because lets face it, Peters would have to be a damn sight better than any Canadian I've ever seen at 17 or that's just what's going to happen. Somebody's gonna make him their bitch out there until Frankie sub's him off. Not exactly great for Mr. Peters ego. Bit dramatic, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I struggle to see a guy starting on the A Team losing hs spot to a B Team player for a WCQ. A friendly, yes perhaps. My sense is that the only player at real risk would be Watson, and then only because Tony Menezes is expereinced and, well, more talented. Even Simpson, who apparently had to very good games on the trot, is not a defender, so is looking to beat out DD and Brennan, two very good players. Perhaps with Hume out, DD will play on th eright flank and Simpson slected as cover on the left side. Jeffrey, you may not have gotten a chance to see the Beleize games, but in both Jazic pushed forward frequently and effectively. I think Yallop should be quite happy with both his outside backs. Really, the questions seems to be: will it be Occean or Simpson who replaces Hume for Guatamala? And did Menezes or Gervais show enough to bump Watson. Perhaps Yallop will invite 24+ players, some of the B team standouts, Nsaliwa, maybe Bent, and let them compete for the back-up spots. I can also easily see Simpson, Peters, Occean earning themselves a call up for an A-team friendly, but a WCQ? I think you want to be pretty certain that they can compete before you take this step. As for Starting line-ups, I think Matthew is on the right track, although McKenna may replace Pesch as a started for the sound reasons stated by Jeffrey. If not starting, then certainly an early sub on for McKenna if we are not getting good looks at the Guatamala goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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