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canada in copa america


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Guest Jeffery S.

This year the States dropped out and Costa Rica was invited in.

I doubt we will ever get an invite for this, unless something incredible happens and we make the World Cup and they really want us.

So the way to go is to win the Gold Cup. I know folks think that making Germany is a higher goal, but in the end we will never win it (nor will the States, or Mexico, so let's not worry about it). If we want to win something we have to try to put our best forwards and go for it. It is only 5 games (Eurocup 6, WC 7). And winning gives us prestige and something to really celebrate.

Even appearing at the Copa would mean giving great exposure to our players. I know it is not as valued in Canada, but many European countries scout it (more than the Gold Cup) and there is tv over here as well (I just discovered today we have it on Catalan tv, watched the end of Colombia-Venezuela this midday, totally surprised to see it on when I went home for lunch).

I would like Canada to some day go to Copa America and try to win that. A better chance there than at the WC, six games, potentially accessible quarter finals, always a chance that Brazil and Argentina could meet before the final one getting knocked out. And we could put our name on a prestigious list. I think, from memory, apart from Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay, Bolivia won once and Peru maybe once or twice. I don't think Paraguay or the others have ever won. It would be wonderful to have our name on that Cup.

In summary: I want to win something, anything. And our best shots are the Gold Cup and the Copa America (harder admittedly).

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Both the US and Mexico were invited based on their performances at the last Gold Cup. The US decided not to accept due to various reasons, and Costa Rica, the next succesful team at the Gold Cup, was invited.

Canada was invited to the 2001 Copa América (July 11-July 29) in Colombia because of winning the Gold Cup, and accepted, but along with Argentina dropped out at the last minute due to "inability to reorganize" after the event was cancelled a few weeks before (due to security concerns) and scheduled to go again six days before opening.

The sad story: In June-July 2001, CONMEBOL had three meetings concerning the lack of security in Colombia. On June 28, Copa América was moved from Colombia due to security; on June 30, Copa América was returned to Colombia, but postponed to 2002; and finally on July 5, the original schedule was confirmed. Canada withdrew on July 6 and Argentina on July 10. Costa Rica and Honduras were invited instead. Mexico lost in the final match to host Colombia. Honduras won the third place match. Costa Rica made it to the quarter finals.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

This year the States dropped out and Costa Rica was invited in.

It is only 5 games (Eurocup 6, WC 7).

I think, from memory, apart from Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay, Bolivia won once and Peru maybe once or twice. I don't think Paraguay or the others have ever won. It would be wonderful to have our name on that Cup.

Pretty good memory, Peru won twice and Bolivia once.

Paraguay won in 1953 and 1979. Colombia won in 2001.

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/sachamp.html

The maximum number of matches a team can play is 6 (including a 3rd place match, which Euro doesn't have). Just like the Euros, even though only twelve teams have been in the tournament, since outsiders were invited starting in 1993. In 1999, Japan participated (not as strange as it seems, as both South Korea and Japan have participated in Gold Cups).

The US was invited and participated in 1993 (in Ecuador, then relatively safe), and in 1995 when they made it to the third place match (in Uruguay, again relatively safe at that time).

So, if Canada is successful in making it to the World Cup or at the next Gold Cup (scheduled for July, 2005, though I think there is a good chance it could be moved) I think there is a good chance we could be invited to the next Copa, scheduled for Venezuela in 2007 (if it is not rescheduled).

As the announcer said yesterday, the Copa América is the "mas antigua" (longest running) tournament in the world (if you don't count the Home Countries tournament, between the 4 main "countries" in the UK, which no longer runs- I don't consider the FA Cup competition, or other Cup competitions, as "tournaments" per se). It has only been called "Copa América" since 1975. Before then, it was just called the South American Championship. It has lost a lot of lustre in South America over the past few decades, even more so since the WCQ's were supersized for the past decade. Most nations have sent undersized squads, and in 1999, Uruguay just sent a youth team.

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quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Should the Copa America and the Gold Cup merge to become a TRUE Copa America(s) ? :)

That would be awesome. If they made it a 16 team tournament and had it every 4 years like the Euros it would rival the Euros in prestige (and Canada would actually have a good chance to qualify!)

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quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Should the Copa America and the Gold Cup merge to become a TRUE Copa America(s) ? :)

There have been lots of discussions about this over the years. The latest thread in bigsoccer is at:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113331&page=1&pp=15

I think it would be great[8D], but to make it momentous and to prevent congestion, I think it should be every four years like the Euro Championship and the Asia Cup. It should either be before the WC qualifying starts, the year after the prior WC (ie:2007) with a simple reduced qualifiers of the lower ranked nations in both Confederations, or after the WCQ's (ie: 2009, or January 2010) with the full qualifying (for each Confederation) for the WC and the Combined Copa mixed in like the Africans are doing now. The idea of a Gold Cup in the middle of the WCQ hex (scheduled for July 1-17, 2005, at the moment), or the Copa America now in the middle of the long WCQ's in South America is ludicrous.

Perhaps the top three in the Combined Copa could be given automatic WC berths, with the remaining top 4 or six in each Confederation playing in subsequent home-and-aways for the remaining WC spots.

I think even the South Americans would go for the idea now, given the reduced lustre of the Copa and the fact that their WCQ's have become their real South American Championship. The real argument would be how many spots of the 16 they feel they should get[}:)].

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

In summary: I want to win something, anything. And our best shots are the Gold Cup and the Copa America (harder admittedly).

Confederations Cup? I think that would be more realistic than the Copa.

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Canada was invited to the 2001 Copa América (July 11-July 29) in Colombia because of winning the Gold Cup, and accepted, but along with Argentina dropped out at the last minute due to "inability to reorganize" after the event was cancelled a few weeks before (due to security concerns) and scheduled to go again six days before opening.

That and the rest of your post is a good summary, but, if I may nitpick, I'm not sure that Argentina dropped out because of an "inability to reorganize" (though that was certainly Canada's official excuse --- and did that ever stir things up around here! one of the All-Time Great Voyageur Debates). I think that Argentina could not agree that the Copa should go on as planned in Colombia at that time because of the security concerns (officially Canada took a neutral stance on this issue, which, as a guest, was probably the right thing to do) and basically sat out in protest. Am I remembering correctly?
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quote:Originally posted by DJT

[brI think that Argentina could not agree that the Copa should go on as planned in Colombia at that time because of the security concerns (officially Canada took a neutral stance on this issue, which, as a guest, was probably the right thing to do) and basically sat out in protest. Am I remembering correctly?

Yes, I think you are right. I did not mean to say that they used the same excuse as Canada, I think I mistakenly left out a comma that would have made that clear.

I can imagine the debate here (I bet someone used the "Denmark had even less preparation for Euro 1992, but they won the darn thing" argument). I didn't have access to the Voyaguers website at that time, because the censored internet server in the Middle-east country I was living in at the time had a filtered block for any link with words that resembled "voyeur". Are there links to this debate surviving, I'd love to read it?

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I know folks think that making Germany is a higher goal, but in the end we will never win it (nor will the States, or Mexico, so let's not worry about it). If we want to win something we have to try to put our best forwards and go for it. It is only 5 games (Eurocup 6, WC 7). And winning gives us prestige and something to really celebrate.

Even appearing at the Copa would mean giving great exposure to our players.

NAH!!!!! I have have to disgree here quite strongly. But I hate reapeating what I alraedy stated in a post on another thread in the general discussions sections yesterday. The quality of soccer in Copa America is very overrated in my opinion, rather poor save for two or maybe three sides. It would represent nothing more than a series of freindlies for canada. Plus, nobody knows about this tournament except the Voyageurs and some South american expats whereas the final for Euro 2004 drew 1.3 mill viewers and was front page material every day. The world cup is pretty much the same.

Right now, winning the Gold Cup would garner more headlines than winning Copa in my opinion. In terms of public interest, there is no way could this substitute for just being at the world cup.

Perhaps because you don't live here, its hard for you to understand what the impact of euro 2004 or WC have on Canadians. Canadians have no rivalries of any sort with south americans countries and the copa is getting no mention except for the standings in the very last page. Focus on these type of tournament at the expense of WCQ would not grow the game in canada cause nobody is talking about it. Plus, from a TV and image standpoint, the ambiance, atmosphere, images etc are really pale in comparaison to the WC or Euro. It would not sell well.

As far as exposure, if Euro clubs see any value in scouting players that I saw yesterday in the 2 copa games over something like the Gold Cup matches, then it tells me that that kind of business is more about strereotypes, reputation and folklore rather talent searching.

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quote:Originally posted by DJT

I don't think so. Canada had planned to go all along. The CSA even had a friendly scheduled against Panama in order to prepare for the copa. The tournament was cancelled so the CSA released the players back to their Euro clubs. About two weeks or 10 days later the tournament was back on and rescheduled to start on a very short notice after some private meetings amongst the soccer associations for South america. According to media sources it was the sponsors who had presured the organizers to still hold the tournament despite the fact that Canadian players had already returned to their clubs and Argentina refused to attend for security concerns. teams had already released their players so were forced to go with B-teams as would have Canada. The CSA chose not to send a B team since it would have meant assembling and sending a domestic based team of players on something like a week's notice. Our current depth for the senior MNT is questionable now, but it was much worst or non existant then.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

That's basically what I said. The reason for Argentina not participating was what I was addressing, and we are all in agreement on this point, as we are on Canada's reason.
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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Pretty good memory, Peru won twice and Bolivia once.

Paraguay won in 1953 and 1979. Colombia won in 2001.

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/sachamp.html

Pretty good long term memory if I recall Bolivia winning in the 50s but pretty bad on the short term if forgot Colombia won last time at home, especially since I watched the game.

I am like an old man who remembers the smell of his mom cooking when he was a kid but can't remember what colour car he drives.

Re the Copa and different posts above. One reason for having it every two years is so every Comebol country (10) can host it "regularly", as essentially it is rotated as long as other things don't get in the way. That is a 20 year cycle. Having it every 4 would make it a 40 year cycle. But I do agree it would be worth more if it were every 4 years. It is more like a regular happening there, for better or worse, a fixture.

Re it not being important. Well maybe in Canada it is not, but our opinion, even our public opinion, means nothing in the soccer world. If Canadians don't watch it that is just our marginal reality. And the real soccer world respects the Copa, some more than others for sure. It is a classic scouting ground, and if anyone thinks that it isn't I can cite the last Copa, when a couple Costa Rica players grabbed European club contracts afterwards, think Winston Parks in Greece was one of them. In this sense it is better than the World Juniors: how many of our players got offers outside their normal playing context afterwards, in spite of us almost taking Spain in quarters? I think it was only Atiba with the Russian offer, Udinense trial (however bogus).

I find it funny that folks think it is devalued because teams don't often send their best players, when that happens at Gold Cup all the time. And it also happened to be the excuse of Colombia and Mexico when we took them out for our win. So, our Gold Cup victory was devalued because the tournament is devalued, like the Copa?

Another factor for Argentina pulling out of Colombia had to do with internal Comebol politics, with them at odds with Leoz the then (and now?) Comebol president. They were just itching to stick one to him, and this was the chance.

I recognize that however upset I was by our decision, technically we had made a FIFA sanctioned call-up for our players, then called it off, obliging us to simply have to beg clubs for our players as none could be recalled within the minimum regulatory time before the Colombia Copa began. I still think we should have tried to go however, as it would have been a great experience, and we could have got exposure for our players.

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quote:Originally posted by DJT

I misinterpreted and missed the usage of the brackets in your post. Yes, you are right. But but if you raed the statement quickly as I did. it sounded like it was canada who sat out in protest. So yes, I did missread your post. My appologises.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

But that tells me that, in the end, it is no more prestigious than the Gold Cup. There is an interesting article in the same thread I alluded to in earlier. Basically, stating that Conmebol sides are placing so much more value in WCQ that this event has become an exercise in experimentation. I interpret that to mean a series of friendlies rather than a true championship. If true, than how does that differ with with the GOld Cup. With a little more promotion, sponsorship and creative efforts by organizers who say the Gold cup can't achieve the same status?

Don't get me wrong. It would be great to see canada partake in Copa and it would be equally great to merge the two confederation and have truly hemispheric championship. As I would equally like to see canada partake in as many friendlies as possible. But I question the notion that, in terms of significance and prestige, it could ever be a substitute for a WC participation in the eyes of the canadian public. I also don't see how it will build our influence within the global soccer community

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The CSA chose not to send a B team since it would have meant assembling and sending a domestic based team of players on something like a week's notice. Our current depth for the senior MNT is questionable now, but it was much worst or non existant then.

Added to that the Francophone Games were happening at the same time and many of our better younger players who were in A-league or NCAA were already unavailable for that reason, leaving the talent pool in the 3 A-league teams (at the time) from which to form a B team rather thin. I agree though, if the same circumstances happened today we'd probably be able to send a much better B team. And judging by some of the unbelievably horrible goalkeeping in the Copa that I've seen thus far (is the Uruguay keeper aware that he is allowed to use his hands?), not to mention porous defense, we might fare half-decently.
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quote:Originally posted by beachesl

I can imagine the debate here (I bet someone used the "Denmark had even less preparation for Euro 1992, but they won the darn thing" argument). I didn't have access to the Voyaguers website at that time, because the censored internet server in the Middle-east country I was living in at the time had a filtered block for any link with words that resembled "voyeur". Are there links to this debate surviving, I'd love to read it?

Unfortunately the format of the old forum does not allow for one (or even a few) massive threads containing the entire debate, so you have to read pages upon pages (which I think makes the extent of the debate appear smaller). Without spending too much time on it I can't find exactly where it all begins. But I did find the poll that I took, after the debate went on and on for a while, in an attempt to summarize the general opinion. For a few days, anyway, the poll can be found on this page. Go forwards and especially backwards a few pages to see the real debates.
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