strobe_z Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I heard on the radio today my very first Aviators advertisment (non-print). I was thinking about how they market the game here in NA (and I don't just mean the Av's)... Seems to me that they try to shoehorn soccer into a mix of NHL/NBA/NFL/MLB style of marketing. By this I mean that the team names, logos, kits, as well as advertisments and general overall impression is stylized to match the existing "big 4" sports. The problem, at least in my view, is that the people who are already fans of those sports are not particularly interested in a new 'weak sister' to watch. On the flip side, that style really turns off those soccer fans that have deeper cultural roots. Soccer in NA is like no where else on earth. The people that might acutally be INTERESTED in soccer are given the cold shoulder in favour of the people who couldn't care less. I have a feeling this starts from the American obsession with "fixing" things (like british tv shows, italian food and "football") and we just get dragged along for the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Really think it's an obsession to do it our way not the Euro way? I think it's just more of a the other side of the Atlantic thang. Here's a link to a British ice hockey site . Why do we say hockey and field hockey. When they say hockey and ice hockey ? They seem comfortable using their own traditions and wording. Elite Ice Hockey League They still use the terms tables , fixtures , put home teams first ,and play for various cups. British National League here's another. Truthfully , I think it's more of a sign of our insecurity with soccer. That there is an insistence that soccer be the one game that we North Americans use European terms . Or maybe it's a soccer snob attitude . Or maybe it's quaint . I don't know , but it's always struck me as odd. The patented really late argh1 late edit: Don't forget we have a semblence of a national hockey league and a national football league and almost , kinda soccer league . But no national b-ball or baseball leagues. We have more of a national rugby league then those two sports. Sometimes I feel we look for problems in soccer. Let pro soccer evolve , it will happen . Not as fast as we want but it will come . Can't you feel it ? Have you ever seen so much soccer on television ? Will we be in the major Euro / South American sphere of domestic leagues , probably not . But we will have a pro league one day. The interest is growing. Just don't marry one or two Canadian cities to MLS or any dream of a national league will suffer. Can't you see a nice little domestic league of ......say 8 or 12 teams averaging 4,500-10,000 attendance being better than 2 team with 20,000 Are we looking for Mr./Ms. Right or Right Now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Interesting topic. I do agree that to grow the game in North america you have to it mostly the north american way. That doesn't mean that you cannot borrow some of the best features of euro soccer where you make the the fans be a part of the show. I do very much agree that The people that might acutally be INTERESTED in soccer are given the cold shoulder in favour of the people who couldn't care less . Some how you need to find a way to reach out to the loyal fans of the sports rather than just the kids who play youth soccer. Howvere, the problem with trying to follow the euro model too much is that you do not have the history nor the fierce loyalty to the clubs that you have in europe. You simply cannot create that overnight by just planting a team in "X" town and calling them the the " Xtreme" or something like that. Having said that I disagree with the notion that: " Just don't marry one or two Canadian cities to MLS or any dream of a national league will suffer. Can't you see a nice little domestic league of ......say 8 or 12 teams averaging 4,500-10,000 attendance being better than 2 team with 20,000" NO I don't and IMO, that will never happen and will not serve any good in the big picture. Besides, it was already tried with the CSL and failed so why would it be any different today. We now have the proof of this by looking no further than our current MNT. Notice that the Whitecaps and Impact draw crowd in that 4,500-10000 range yet not a single one of their players was selected by Yallop for the Belize game. Yet we have a GK like Greg Sutton who has yet to allow a goal in 8 games this season. If the level of play of the current A-League is not suffient enough to to entice Yallop to choose someone like Sutton over a keeper who has no club, why would that change under a 10-12 team league with clubs only in canadian towns. What would that say to a potential fan of your club that you own when your team and league is not strong enough to place any players on the national teams. Clubs need to be successfull financially to provide proper development for our players to be able to compete internationally. To be successfull financially, you need markets and where do you see 10-12 markets in this country sufficient size for professional teams of any sport let alone soccer. We don't have enough cities in Canada We just don't have the demographics and geography for this to happen. Don't you think the CFL would love to expand but why hasn't it? One final point. The notion of 10-12 teams in Canada has been raised on numerous occasions by many as standard of success. But how would one explain the fact that for most of the last century, there were only two NHL teams in canada. Yet that hasn't stopped Canadian hockey from growing in popularity and making us successfull in the sport internationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 quote:Originally posted by argh1 Really think it's an obsession to do it our way not the Euro way? Truthfully , I think it's more of a sign of our insecurity with soccer. That there is an insistence that soccer be the one game that we North Americans use European terms. Or maybe it's a soccer snob attitude. Or maybe it's quaint. I don't know , but it's always struck me as odd. The problem is we're stuck in the middle.. The A-League is a good example, teams like Calgary (Storm) and Syracuse were actually told by the USL that they NEED to have a "nickname" (i.e. "Storm" and "Salty Dogs") when they wanted to call the teams basically "Calgary FC". I'm actually a little surprised that they don't mandate a giant crest on the front of the jersey like the NHL teams have. Many leagues (NASL, MLS, A-League, etc.) have fooled around with the format of the game as well in an effort to make it more "fan-friendly". Shoot outs or extra-time "Golden Goals" after every tie game, more points if you score more goals, etc... On the flip side (as you point out), there's an insistance to use the Euro-terms, and the perception that this is a "Euro-game". Basically then you're doing a half-assed job of marketing a game to a "unenlightened" NA audiance by trying to boil it down to the lowest common denominator.. but then they can't understand why people with the ethnic backgrounds to embrace the game here shun it. As you say, the world is getting smaller.. there's more "real" soccer on television than ever before. Why are we holding on to this dream of "fixing it"? I don't think it's working. Problem is, it's been going on so long here it may be too late to try to set it up in such a way that people who know what "real" soccer is supposed to look like will support it. I'm a pretty good example, I didn't have any interest in soccer at all until I lived in Korea during the bidding for the 2002 World Cup. Asia is hardly the hottest hot bed of world football, but it's way better than here. I came back enthused and raring to go.. only to find that we're so backward in our way of doing things that it barely resmebles the rest of the world. Think of the first time you saw the Olympics or World Cup of Hockey decided by a shoot-out?! What the hell is that?? Or the first time you saw Euro club teams with sponsor patches plastered all over their uniforms? I can honestly say it was a weird feeling. Flip that around and you get an idea of what most people would think about our attempts at "soccer". Heh.. even this morning, a buddy an I were talking about how Hockey is similar to where soccer was 50 years ago. I was looking at the IIHF site and found out that club teams in some of the European countries are basically called something like "HC Azbian". The IIHF has a similar ranking system to FIFA (Canada is #1), and they have an intriguing promotion/relegation system for the National team "World Championships". Where to Germany/Belarus/Switzerland/etc. go when they aren't playing with the 'big boys' of hockey? Well they're winning their Group "B" pool Championships and getting promoted back to the big time. Is it time to just give up on 'fixing' soccer and following the rest of the world? would that bring in more support for Canadian club teams? the MNT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 quote:Originally posted by argh1 [Are we looking for Mr./Ms. Right or Right Now ? We are looking for Mr. Goodcucumber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I think that club names and sponsors on shirts, etc and so forth are somewhat important as are merchandizing and competition structure. But no where near as important as the entertainment value and ongoing marketing efforts. It all starts from that point onward. 1)Are you able to get people through the turnstiles? To do this you may need to steal SOME ideas from overseas. But you have to remember and know who your customers are. And they are mostly Canadian. One thing that the clubs could do to improve the fan experience and attract the euro types is to work on making the game ambiance resemble as closely as possible that which occurs in Europe minus the vandalism and excessive rowdiness. They could do this by assisting in creating supporters clubs and working closely ( and supporting) them. Without interfering with them. Example, cut them some slack if the odd flare is lit up. And Yes, I know, flares are fire hazzards. 2) can you provide a product or experience for the customer to come back to buy your product again. No different than cerial, or candy bars, or the county fair. Once you mastered that, the loyaty, history and tradition will grow from within? followed by the media coverage which in turn will further grow the fan base. To do this you need decent facilities and players that fans can recognize and connect with. IMO it doesn't really matter to the majority of people whether or not you call yourself FC this or AC that. To the euro types its the product and name ( Player)quality that counts. To the soccer newcomers its teh overall experience of a game that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick But how would one explain the fact that for most of the last century, there were only two NHL teams in canada. Yet that hasn't stopped Canadian hockey from growing in popularity and making us successfull in the sport internationally. Sorry but that is not in any way a valid comparison. From the beginning of the NHL right down to today the bulk of players in ALL teams has been Canadian. Tampa Bay might as well be called a Canadian team even thought they play in [cough, splutter] Florida. If we were exporting soccer players in the same sort of numbers we exported hockey players you might have a point but we don't. While hockey clubs scout Canadian junior teams religiously soccer clubs almost never scout Canadian junior teams. In both Hockey and soccer it is professional clubs that develop professional players. That is why we need more pro clubs like the Whitecaps (or better). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 I didn't touch on that.. but Ted's right, NHL only having a couple of Canadian teams don't really compare. There's places in this country that support their junior/minor league teams better than we could ever(?)get for a top flight soccer team. People say that relegation won't work in Canada, but if you cut out of the NHL, I can see it working just fine for hockey in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Having said that I disagree with the notion that: " Just don't marry one or two Canadian cities to MLS or any dream of a national league will suffer. Can't you see a nice little domestic league of ......say 8 or 12 teams averaging 4,500-10,000 attendance being better than 2 team with 20,000" NO I don't and IMO, that will never happen and will not serve any good in the big picture. Besides, it was already tried with the CSL and failed so why would it be any different today. We now have the proof of this by looking no further than our current MNT. Notice that the Whitecaps and Impact draw crowd in that 4,500-10000 range yet not a single one of their players was selected by Yallop for the Belize game. Yet we have a GK like Greg Sutton who has yet to allow a goal in 8 games this season. If the level of play of the current A-League is not suffient enough to to entice Yallop to choose someone like Sutton over a keeper who has no club, why would that change under a 10-12 team league with clubs only in canadian towns. What would that say to a potential fan of your club that you own when your team and league is not strong enough to place any players on the national teams. Clubs need to be successfull financially to provide proper development for our players to be able to compete internationally. To be successfull financially, you need markets and where do you see 10-12 markets in this country sufficient size for professional teams of any sport let alone soccer. We don't have enough cities in Canada We just don't have the demographics and geography for this to happen. Don't you think the CFL would love to expand but why hasn't it? Why is it always about how many players our clubs provide for the national team? So what if we had a national league of 10-12 teams drawing 4,500-10,000 per game, and none of them where providing players for the national team? That would still be better than just 2 teams in the MLS providing a tiny amount of players for the national team. Bottom line is we'd still have our own domestic league in which 10-12 Canadian cities fans could go out and watch some local soccer live, which wouldn't be the case with just 2 MLS sides and a national team that only plays in Canada every 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I think we should not be afraid to mix in our own traditions while still maintaining some basic soccer traditions. However, the crass childish marketing tactics of many North American sports that take away from the game (cheerleaders, cute names and logos, souvenir kitsch, scoreboards telling fans when to cheer, etc.) are not what I would consider our traditions. I have seen games in contrasting atmospheres such as Vodka fueled Russian stadiums to Tunesian stadiums where no alcohol and no women were to be seen. However, despite the differences there were some basic constants with the crowd noise and atmosphere. This is one of soccer's best feature and something we should encourage here while putting our own flavour on it (like the Voyageurs did on Sunday). It will be a long time before we have a league of international quality so we need to do something to attract people to the sport, something that makes it stand out and makes it a different experience than attending minor league baseball or CFL games. I lived in Germany for 8 years and had many opportunites to attend top rate soccer but often preferred to attend 3rd and 4th division matches because of the crowd atmosphere. I think if our clubs could establish such atmosphere they would be able to attract many more traditional soccer fans and new ones who like the atmosphere even if the game does not compare to the Premiership. I think many young people would love to be a member of a somewhat rowdy supporters group. Hockey is still my favourite sport but the way the NHL has ruined the traditional hockey atmosphere which used to be quite good (and is still to be seen in small town rinks at amateur and youth games) makes me sick. I will applaud when I want to not when I am told to, if I want to hear pop music at every break I would go to a disco, if I want to see women dancing erotically I will go to a strip club and I will go to a game because I am interested in the result not because it is theme night. I still watch the NHL because of the quality of the players but don't want to have to sit through the same crap to watch A-league or even MLS level play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crampton Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Krammerhead's point is very well taken. Ultimately the point of a Canadian domestic league must be to entertain the fans NOT develop players for the national team. These goals are far from mutually exclusive of course but focusing on the national team is putting the cart before the horse IMHO. Personally, I think that if market forces were to be allowed to work (rather than limiting the market with a franchise system) the most likely solution is that a sort of Scotland or Holland situation develops in Canada. Vancouver and Montreal are the Rangers/Celtic or PSV/Ajax/Feyenoord(sp?) and everyone else are the small provincial clubs. Toronto would pull a London and be divided amongst a number of medium size clubs who are competitive but never at the same time (ala Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, QPR, West Ham, et al.). The big clubs could possibley provide a few MNT players but would more realistically be just like Ajax... the final step before moving abroad - even to MLS which would be the EPL to our SPL. That way Canadian fans would have a nice little league to follow and Canadian players would have a league to develop in from 16 to 23 before moving overseas (which lest we forget can be very intimidating before such and age - how many of our boys overseas are there because they had family in the nation they went to?). Hopefully a Canadian league could be more competitive than the Scottish one of course! Finally with regard to how soccer is marketed here strobe_z is correct: it sucks. The single hardest thing about getting friends to go to Thunder games with me is that they are turned off by the amateurish attempts to appear "big league" in the North American sense. I've been to exactly one Lynx game and got the exact same impression. Teach people to enjoy the game and you can develop loyal fans. Millions of kids and adults play soccer in North America by the standard FIFA rules - why do they need to be changed to appeal to these very same people? Growing up in Southern Ontario and playing my whole life I never had a problem understanding that when the game is tied after regular time it ends as a draw. Changes like overtime are gimmicks that anyone but the most ignorant soccermom can see right through. I will admit that growing up here and watching Soccer Saturday occasionally I could never figure out why the teams didn't have nicknames or "symbols", how the different domestic leagues worked (let alone the European competitions), or why London didn't have a team in the English league. That was a different time though. There is way more soccer on TV now and more and more regular sports fans are at least conversant with the big names (Real, ManUre, Arsenal, Milan, etc.) of European football. To appear legitimate then North American leagues should blend elements of both. MLS seems to be learning this as the years go by and everything from the rules to their jerseys now more closely resemble the European way of doing things. It's still distinctively American but not so much that I'm turned off by it. It's true that no one in the MLS heirarchy could probably even conceive of it now but I can honestly imagine a day when they grow to 20 teams and initiate an MLS/MLS2 setup with a promotion and relegation system between the two leagues. More and more born and bred NA fans (like me) watch so much overseas footy that they perceive this as the natural order of a football league. In fact I have found that when you explain to sportsfans here how the system works they have a natural inclination towards it since it appeals to the meritocratic ethos so central to American culture. Plus, does anyone really think that the Penguins deserve to stay in the NHL after last year? Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 quote:Originally posted by beachesl We are looking for Mr. Goodcucumber. Or was that a Zuchinni ( apologies to Mel Brooks in advance ) IT'S TRUE ................IT'S TRUE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 People keep raising the point that quality of play is not important. Or more specifically, that it is irrelevant how many players within the league make it on the MNT's. Then you have to wonder why bother spending money to follow these clubs. Where do you draw the line with respect to what is acceptable quality worth paying to watch? You could watch amateur soccer such as the CPSL or any host of provincial leagues, CIAU soccer, or even a bunch of 12 years olds in the park and it won't cost you anything. These games have always been around in canada. So why bother forking out 10-20$ to watch players in some 10-12 team league just because there are only Canadian teams. That is not what people pay money for. Quality of play and overall entertainment value is far far more important. Also, the biggest gatherings in terms of V's fan support thus far have been for MNT's and not for the current club teams. Why, because of prestige and importance of matches. And isn't the quality of the product the main attribute as to why greater prestige is placed on international games? Regarding Ted's point. People don't tune in on saturday nights to watch hockey because many of the players on the other teams are canadian or because 50-60% of the players in the NHL are Canadian. They tune in to watch their favourite local team play and because they like hockey probably because of having played it, they understand it better than anyone else in the World.. And my point is that when there were only 2 NHL teams in Canada alot of people still tuned in and paid to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I just don't understand your thinking, Free Kick. I can't speak for anywhere else but in Vancouver our 4000-5000 fans per game go to watch the team play it's A-League opponents. We don't stand there saying "jeez, I don't think I can go watch any more games because not one Whitecaps player has made the national team." I have no problem forking out my money to go watch the teams and players in the A-League. I know you may not like to hear this, but so what if the biggest group of voyageurs fan support is for national team games? Thats what the voyageurs were set up to do, support the national team. But I'll tell you what, drop by the Southside at Swangard stadium for a game, and the vocal support and the numbers is larger than what was at the mens game last Sunday. Not trying to start an argument, just stating the facts. Going on to say that one can go and watch CIAU soccer or under 12s in the park is a rather pointless statement. We are talking about supporting a pro-soccer league here, not whether or not we'd go watch any game available. Pro soccer with teams in 10 cities where a fan could get attached to the team in their city, like many of us here in Vancouver have done, and apparently in Montreal to. If one needs the prestige and importance of the matches in order to attend so they'll only go to national games and maybe potential MLS, then they aren't really soccer fans at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 FreeKick.. name one club team in the world that has more support than that country's MNT? The BIG clubs like ManU, Real, Juve might have better marketing and sell more merchandise but I doubt you could say they have more support than England, Spain and Italy. As for the players on the team having to be MNT players... well France is arguably the best team in the world right now.. how many of those players play their club football in France? I could care less how many players the Aviators would potentially have on the MNT.. it's nice to think that guys like Radz, deVos, DeRosario played in the A-League before going on to something bigger and better.. but that's the normal progression of world football - every league is a feeder league for a bigger one. Personally I'd love to see a full Canadian league, with the best level of play possible. As for the "2 hockey teams worked in Canada before" I assume you're talking original 6. Despite the fact that you could split the country into Leaf fans and Canadians fans... those same fans were still rabid for their local semi-pro teams as well. Hockey works in Canada for the same reason that people support 2nd and 3rd division teams in Europe.. it's part of the culture. An example of BHTC Mike's comments about how it's hard to explain the "fixes" done to NA soccer. Perfect example last night. beachesl and I watched the Aviators battle Montreal to a 1-1 draw. Final whistle, we both stood up talking about how it wasn't a bad result, but we let it get away at the death. We weren't the only ones standing or making our way to the gate either.. when someone started yelling "there's still overtime!". Beachesl turned to me and said "oh.. I've been watching real soccer too much (Euro2004).. I forgot~". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Haven't posted for a while, but decided to weigh in anyways... One thing that never gets mentioned about the promotion of sports is the importance of names of players. There is an added cost-free marketing ploy to every league when it has a marquee name. Ticket sales for Canucks games would go up if Gretzky came to town, or if Shaq or Jordan for the Grizzlies (who?). Having an all Canadian league would be that much more popular due to the fact that all cities would know the players better. Who here can honestly look forward to playing Milwuakee when they barely know the roster? There are exceptions with Rochester and Seattle, due to proximity and all. But with an all Canadian league, there will be a lot more coverage in Canada because it is Canadian, and Canadian league content will have priority over non-Canadian league content. Sports shows will regularly broadcast Canadian golf tour scores, why? Because it is in Canada. I'm sure there are many international golfers on the tour. I don't know for a fact, but I have a feeling that attendances for the 86ers were higher in the CSL than the A-League. The Whitecaps are a better organization than it used to be 10 years ago, but I think there was a greater interest in the team attendance wise. I'm sure someone will correct me on this. But my theory is that people knew who was coming to town which directly would impact attendance. (weather permitting....Vancouver rain) Euro vs NA marketing....could be the issue....knowing the players in the league another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I W A S being sarcastic about the "real soccer" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I can only speak for myself of course, but I attend CIS (CIAU) soccer regularly - have to pay $5 for it - as well as attending Sask Super League (regretfully only 3 teams this year, down from 6). Indeed, I've even stopped to watch youth teams in the park from time to time, but as a middle aged man without Children playing, I find it better to move on before too long so as to avoid the inevitable questions from Saskatoon's finest If Saskatoon had a PDL team, I'd hold season tickets, the same for A-League. Like K-head, the presence of NT players would not have much of an effect on my attendance, although the higher the quality, perhaps the higher my spectating pleasure might be (A pretty move for the Love of God). The question, obviously, is whether there are enough like me in Saskatoon to attend and support such a side. I could not, frankly, get too excited about Canadian MLS teams - the Whitecaps an exception, but due more to my support and ability to attend some NASL games back in the day - that were not in my community. The people who clamour for "major league" quality, are also the people who will desert a team when it is mired in a loosing steak. They are not real fans of the either the sport or the team. If I could get a national league, with a team in Saskatoon, but it meant that the best 40+ canadian players would have to continue to play in foreign leagues, I jump at it over two MNT-heavy based teams in Toronto and wherever I would. Of course, if "wherever" was Saskatoon, I might have a different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Heh, okay, I'll correct you. Attendance for 86ers/Whitecaps games have never really differed regardless of league (CSL, APSL, A-League). http://newheads.tripod.com/swangardsouth/id24.html You are correct about more coverage helping people be more aware of who's coming to town, which may create more interest. What could help at the moment is if newspaper reporters would actually report on the team visiting the city as opposed to reporting that there is an upcoming game and then profiling a local player as they do in Vancouvers papers. Beachesl, that sarcasm was nasty! Thats one of the problems local soccer has, people feeling it's not "real" soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Me baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 I should clear up that the fact that I knew what beachesl meant by the comment.. but I was thinking the same thing. "It was a hard fought match, the Aviators came close to winning but couldn't hold off the best team in the League.. well done lads. Let's go home". The fact that we had to sit through an extra 20 minutes to no effect was rather pointless. Montreal looked tired and ready to get on the plane home.. and the Aviators looked like "well.. we coulda won, but it's a draw.. so don't freakin' lose!". I'm glad to hear that overtime will be done away with next year, because we weren't the only ones thinking that I fear. The point is well taken about player recognition though. I'm running the freakin' fan site and was asked by a-league.com to do the match report in Sergio's absence. All night long I was asking beachesl "who was that?". I know the name of the players, but without the television annoucers play by play it really takes some effort to memorize the names/numbers and positions. I'm betting not many people are willing to put in that kind of effort. Knowing your players make a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I have to add that there has been no official confirmation that they are doing away with OT next season. However people have been saying that it's most likely they will, they always seem to be one year behind MLS with their rule changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobe_z Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Let's make it official... after all the draws the Aviators seem to love my ass can't take sitting there that long~ Well.. unless we win that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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