Toss the Khadr's !

[Grizzly]

Ed do you understand the english language???? To be quite honest, although we have had some agreements and disagreements on this board, such a comment from you really pisses me off and is deserving of an apology. Show me one quote where I defend the Khadrs. Hargreaves is not a Canadian in my definition of the term but I never stated anywhere that his citizenship should be revoked nor that my definition of what a Canadian is that which should be drafted into law. I would personally love if his citizenship were revoked but that is why we have laws, so that certain people can not have their rights removed because other people dislike them, their views or their actions. The Khadrs are even less so Canadians than Hargreaves in my definition of the term as is the leader of the Hell's Angels. But in each of those two cases I think the proper remedy is to prosecute them for proveable crimes that they have committed not to break the rule of law because of dislike of them, their views or their actions. The act of removing citizenship of Canadians who hold reprehensible views is far more dangerous than the presence of the Khadrs in this country especially when other legal options exist. My values which you disparage are that Canadian law should be defended not broken for the sake of crude political popularism. I am in full support of prosecuting the Khadrs for participating in terrorist activities but that was not the aim of this petition. By the way my definition of a Canadian is that a Canadian plays or fights for Canada not another country. Although there is certainly a difference in extremes and Hargreave's actions are non-violent and involving a Canadian ally, both the Khadrs and Hargreaves have decided to represent and fight for another cause and country than the Canadian cause.

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If you know then what is the point of making the above post????? Canadian citizens can not be deported to other countries. Only foreign citizens can be deported. The only grounds for sending a Canadian citizen to another country is criminal extradition.

True. What I meant was extradition, not deportation. My bad; my Phd was lost in the mail. In actually, everyone knows this is never going to happen. It was totally hypothetical.

So to make my point clear (as I have not done so far): extradition is the only option if you support their expulsion. This isn't really going to happen and we can't strip them of due process just because of their opinions. That's just not possible, nor acceptable. That's life in a free country.

[bubbles]

Probably be very hard to prove but I bet the list of crimes they committed against fellow citizens of Canada is huge. If you shot a police officer and your mother helped you while you were unlawfully at large she would be charged. So the old woman is probably guilty of complicity or conspiracy to commit murder of somekind, being as Canada has combatants in the theatre of operations. Some of the sons are probably guilty of attempted murder. They are not soldiers under the protection of Geneva convention, they are murdering terrorists, plain and simple.

They have rights, a right to a member of the duty council to be present when a Justice hands them all a stay in a federal institution for passport fraud. I wish... (And anyone who doubts they are at least guilty of passport offences is naive, and I have a string of other names for them too, none very flattering)

For all the believers in fair play out there, just remember, if the shoe were on the other foot there would be no public outcry for your rights. Imagine if a Canadian caucasian family who had resided in Afganistan for many years, returned to fight for the USA (in civilian clothing) and espouse that worshiping Allah made you a homosexual. You'd merely end up with a bullet in the back of your head and a very shallow grave...

[Winnipeg Fury]

Children's aid probing Khadrs

Agency examines treatment of son in afghanistan: 'Counselling one's child to become suicidal or homicidal constitutes emotional child abuse'

 

Don Martin

National Post

Tuesday, April 20, 2004

Karim Khadr, 14, arrives home in Toronto on April 9 from a Pakistani hospital. He was paralyzed in a gunfight along the Pakistan border in which his father was killed.

CREDIT: Peter Redman, National Post

The Children's Aid Society has launched an investigation into whether the parents of 14-year-old Karim Khadr are guilty of child abuse for counselling him to become a terrorist.

Maha Elsamnah Khadr arrived in Toronto from Pakistan with her paralyzed son two weeks ago, demanding health care and triggering a debate on the boy's right to medicare. Ms. Elsamnah wants treatment for the spinal injury the boy received in a gunfight with Pakistani troops that killed his father, Ahmed Said Khadr, an al-Qaeda fundraiser and Osama bin Laden operative.

An official says the Children's Aid Society of Toronto "has already begun" looking into Karim's treatment from his parents while the family lived in Afghan terrorism circles.

Authorities will start by investigating a report received yesterday from psychologist Marty McKay, an expert witness in more than 200 child welfare cases.

"We're treating it seriously," said agency spokeswoman Melanie Persaud. "If we're going to help this child in any way, it's important for us to get good quality information and that's what our next steps will be."

Since Canada has legislated aggressive spankings as child abuse, the 14-year-old's involvement with terrorists and his brush with violent death could cause his mother serious legal complications.

Ms. Elsamnah, who left Canada many years ago, denouncing it as a place unworthy of raising children lest they be exposed to drugs and homosexuality, has promised the glories of heaven to her offspring should they become martyrs for extremist Islamic causes. She has also declared her pride in another teenage son being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for killing a U.S. medic.

That brand of parental guidance prompted Dr. McKay to raise the alarm with Children's Aid authorities, arguing it is part of her professional mandate as a clinical psychologist with 28 years in the field.

"I am sure that you would agree that counselling one's child to become suicidal or homicidal constitutes emotional child abuse, leading to physical abuse when the child acts upon these teachings," she said in her report.

U.S. security chief says coming months are "rich with symbolic opportunities for the terrorists to try to shake our will," Page A8

Having worked with thousands of abused children, Dr. McKay predicts authorities will find Karim is suffering multiple mental problems stemming from his upbringing.

"I'd be surprised if the child wasn't suffering from two or three disorders, be it anxiety or depression suffered by the loss of family members and the fact he's been paralyzed," Dr. McKay said in an interview yesterday. "Psychologically, I'm sure he's quite a mess."

For the Khadrs, the child abuse investigation could become a reminder that claiming the benefits of Canadian citizenship also comes with legal consequences for their actions taken beyond our borders.

Children's Aid officials waited barely two hours after receiving Dr. McKay's report before launching the Khadr probe. And they confirmed Dr. McKay's view that child abuse on foreign soil is not immune from Canadian investigation, child apprehension and parental prosecution.

"Whether or not the child has experienced the hardship in another country or in this country is a red herring," Ms. Persaud said.

"We're concerned with the type of parenting the child is receiving here. If it happened in another country, it very well could happen again here. The parent is the constant, not the country."

Police could be involved if evidence of abuse is found, she added.

During a CBC television interview in March, Karim's 23-year-old sister, Zaynab, expressed her support for suicide bombing.

"We believe in dying by the hand of your enemy," she said. "My father had always wished that he would be killed ... he would be killed for the sake of Allah. I remember when we were very young he would say, if you guys love me, pray for me that I get jihaded, which is killed.''

Karim's mother said she would be happy if her children died the same way.

"You know we are promised that we go to Heaven," Ms. Elsamnah said.

Abdurahman Khadr, 21, Karim's older brother, who was released from a U.S. jail and returned to Toronto last year, told the CBC he was "raised to become an al-Qaeda, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person ... I decided on my own that I do not want to be that."

Dr. McKay has personally been involved in two incidents where parents were arrested in Canada after their children complained of being sexually assaulted in Thailand. She sees parallels here.

"While Ms. Khadr may have the right to her religious and political views, it is also imperative to note that all children ... have equal rights of protection under the law and exceptions cannot be made based on cultural differences," she said. "Child abuse is still a crime."

For the Khadrs, the Children's Aid investigation adds to a difficult homecoming, where the family's views and actions have triggered political reaction federally and provincially.

While Prime Minister Paul Martin washed his hands of any retaliation against the Khadrs, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has demanded they apologize for their views before receiving provincial benefits and federal Immigration Minister Judy Sgro called on the widow to apologize and show more respect for her citizenship.

© National Post 2004

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by bubbles

They have rights, a right to a member of the duty council to be present when a Justice hands them all a stay in a federal institution for passport fraud. I wish... (And anyone who doubts they are at least guilty of passport offences is naive, and I have a string of other names for them too, none very flattering)

Yes, the amount of passport fraud that occurs is mindboggling. I trust you are also of the opinion that the number of Canadian tourists who "lose" their passport overseas and the alarmingly high number of jewish students who "lose" their passports while studying in Israel also be subject to the same investigtions and sanctions? The canadian passport is very valuable - to the extent that a certain foreign government gives them to their assassins. And drug dealers in South America are also willing to pay huge sums. Last I heard, the going rate was $10,000 for a valid Canadian passport. I agree with you that the Canadian government needs to do far more to protect teh integrity of our passport. Afterall, the difference in appearance and speech between myslef and a mossad agent born and raised in Minnesota is neglible. Ever wonder why a Syrian born Canadian is held hostage in Iraq on suspicion of being an israeli spy? Could happen to any of us. But as you say, very hard to prove.

quote:Originally posted by bubbles

For all the believers in fair play out there, just remember, if the shoe were on the other foot there would be no public outcry for your rights. Imagine if a Canadian caucasian family who had resided in Afganistan for many years, returned to fight for the USA (in civilian clothing) and espouse that worshiping Allah made you a homosexual. You'd merely end up with a bullet in the back of your head and a very shallow grave...

Interestingly enough, in Taliban governed Afghanistn, anyone starting a petition for the government to ignore Taliban law would probably suffer the same fate. I think we are all in agreement that we are better off with the rights and protections guaranteed in our constitution and common law tradition.

[DoyleG]

Charge the Khadr's with a least the violation of the "Foriegn Enlistment Act".

May not be much, but it would be a start.

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Charge the Khadr's with a least the violation of the "Foriegn Enlistment Act".

Whoa! We have one?

[Gloucester in FLA]

I live in Florida and I saw the Khadr's interview just last night. It makes me sick that people come to Canada and take advantage of its resources only to spit on it every time that they have the opportunity to do so. I understand that our country is built on immigration, I myself am a first generation Canadian, but come on....enough is enough! These people ruin it for the honest immigrants that want to work hard and improve their quality of life. How convenient that once injured, Canada is a great place to come back to in order to get medical attention. Hurt in guerilla warfare in the Afghan or Pakistani mountains? Then get help in one of those modern hospitals in some cave over there. Canadians are taxed enough as it is....there is no need to waste anymore tax money on these people.