Toss the Khadr's !

[Mimglow]

I agree. We already have divisive and inflammatory arguments concerning soccer, and that is as it should be. We don't need to bring in political arguments, beliefs, etc into the mix to create more division.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

I agree. We already have divisive and inflammatory arguments concerning soccer, and that is as it should be. We don't need to bring in political arguments, beliefs, etc into the mix to create more division.

Hypocrites. It's quite fashionable to bash the USA in pretty much any thread that mentions the country. But to suggest deporting these scum who supported the 9/11 attacks is 'divisive' and not suitable for this forum?? Price of freedom.

[Winnipeg Fury]

"It is against the congenial nature of this forum.'

This is national news that has been covered by every major news network in Canada. Members of Parliament from the ruling Liberals and official opposition have called for the Kahdr's to be banished. This family has lied and decieved the Canadian public and Canadian officials for years. Polls have shown that the majority of Canadians want them removed from Canada.

If you feel this is inappropriate, I suggest you bury your head in the sand.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Hypocrites. It's quite fashionable to bash the USA in pretty much any thread that mentions the country. But to suggest deporting these scum who supported the 9/11 attacks is 'divisive' and not suitable for this forum?? Price of freedom.

As someone that regularly bashes the US, I agree completely with Ed.

[Gordon]

I don't think it necessary to close this. My belief is that this forumis open to precisely this. Perhaps I am wrong, and it is intended to be open only to non-canadian soccer discussion. I made my post recognizing that some, many even, might not agree. I don't expect that everyone will see the world in the same light, and I know from experence that the majority of posters on this board can debate this civilly. Ed is correct that political and social issues come up all over these boards and we don't ban them.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by torontosupport

I recommend they not be stripped of citizenship, not charged with impossible to prove charges within Canada and not hounded by Canadian media. Instead, I recommend they be deported to Pakistan for the crime of - at the very least - tax evasion. Whether they are charged there with the theoretical crime of setting mines in hills that vapourized a Pakistani soldier who had 3 kids back home in Karachi is not my problem.

I have no problem with extradition if Pakistan can meet the standards we require for any criminal extradition. I have no problem with criminal charges in Canada if that is warranted and not done solely for political reasons. If they are guilty of any crimes they should be punished accordingly. That isn't at issue here. What is being proposed is stripping citizenship because of their views. As Canadian's were are entitled to hold extreme opinions and be free from persecution for them. What we are not entitled to do is act criminally in support of them. If you head down to media guy's part of Saskatchewan, you will encounter militia types if you look hard enough. True also of much of Alberta, and indeed, I saw a piece on The National where some clowns from an Alberta Militia were rambling on about the Zionist Occupation Government. Moron's, for sure. But do we strip them of their citizenship given Oklahoma City?

[Mimglow]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

"It is against the congenial nature of this forum.'

This is national news that has been covered by every major news network in Canada. Members of Parliament from the ruling Liberals and official opposition have called for the Kahdr's to be banished. This family has lied and decieved the Canadian public and Canadian officials for years. Polls have shown that the majority of Canadians want them removed from Canada.

If you feel this is inappropriate, I suggest you bury your head in the sand.

This is a forum for Canadian Soccer Supporters. Frankly, I don't want to know your views on political issues, because when the time comes to support Canada I want to be able to stand next to you cheering on Canada while at the same time liking you. I don't know that I could do that if I knew you were a bigot, or if (hypothetically) you supported Al-Queda, or believed black people should be enslaved (again, hypothetically to drive my point).

Basically, I don't want to know what your views are on this movement or that, if it's not related to soccer. It makes it harder to join you in support of our National Team, and could lead to cliques, which is counter-productive.

Head in the sand? Not quite. I have strong geo-political views, which I love to discuss with friends and acqaintances. You are neither.

Here's where you should go if you want to spread your views.

http://groups.msn.com/CanadianPoliticsandIssues

[argh1]

I , almost gave in, but nooooooo. This forum should be for a game , a sport , entertainment .

Politics is for another forum.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

This is a forum for Canadian Soccer Supporters. Frankly, I don't want to know your views on political issues, because when the time comes to support Canada I want to be able to stand next to you cheering on Canada while at the same time liking you. I don't know that I could do that if I knew you were a bigot, or if (hypothetically) you supported Al-Queda, or believed black people should be enslaved (again, hypothetically to drive my point).

Basically, I don't want to know what your views are on this movement or that, if it's not related to soccer. It makes it harder to join you in support of our National Team, and could lead to cliques, which is counter-productive.

Head in the sand? Not quite. I have strong geo-political views, which I love to discuss with friends and acqaintances. You are neither.

Here's where you should go if you want to spread your views.

http://groups.msn.com/CanadianPoliticsandIssues

Yes, you have strong geopolitical views that you have shared with us many times. Perhaps next time you should heed your own advice and post them elsewhere.

Frankly I could care less what you think of my views. My view on the Kahdr's is the same as the majority of Canadians. This is national news in our country and as such, very appropriate for discussion.

If you don't want to discuss this, then don't post on the thread.

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I have no problem with extradition if Pakistan can meet the standards we require for any criminal extradition. I have no problem with criminal charges in Canada if that is warranted and not done solely for political reasons. If they are guilty of any crimes they should be punished accordingly. That isn't at issue here. What is being proposed is stripping citizenship because of their views. As Canadian's were are entitled to hold extreme opinions and be free from persecution for them. What we are not entitled to do is act criminally in support of them. If you head down to media guy's part of Saskatchewan, you will encounter militia types if you look hard enough. True also of much of Alberta, and indeed, I saw a piece on The National where some clowns from an Alberta Militia were rambling on about the Zionist Occupation Government. Moron's, for sure. But do we strip them of their citizenship given Oklahoma City?

Exactly my point, thank you. We've got the wrong issue here.

[beachesl]

Well, there is goodnatured ribbing of national, inter-national and intra-national rivalries that touch on sport (or even if not touching directly on sport... everyone who reads this forum know that all here do not hate the US, we all have a healthy respect for our friends to the south), and then there is raw political, religious, ethnic and nationalistic namecalling. I don't mind (and it is actually enjoyable and the eseence of what makes this forum so neat) Ed passing off a picture of a lot of nude men crammed into a bar as a meeting of the Avaitor's supporters club (still scheming to get you back for that one Ed!), but to call anybody inflammatory names that would contravene, say, the CRTC code of conduct, is not good game.

I certainly don't want us to descend into some of the cr*p that goes on in places like BigSoccer. Whether that requires some censorship or making certain topics out of bounds is, of course, debatable. I personally feel uncomfortable with the Khadr issue, even if it a valid issue that could be talked about elsewhere and is talked about fairly here, being on this forum. But, I also have the aversion to censorship that other here have. It's a bit of a connundrum anyway one looks at it.

I am minded of our Israeli friend who last year touched a few nerves with some of his his raw, though valid, comments about the situation in the middle east. At lot of foreigners can't understand the unwritten Canadian code of decency. I feel bad that he is not posting here anymore, but it was a situation where the moderators had to moderate.

I think that the moderators should come out with a proposed flexible policy about non-valid topics or inapproriate comments which we can briefly discuss before it is decided upon and implemented by the moderators. I trust their judgement.

I think that we should respect whatever the moderators agree to. For instance, I inappropriately called another member a "tease" for posting an excellent front page for a fan site that one couldn't yet enter. It was done unwisely, but goodnaturedly, as a backhanded compliment to the poster for the quality of the page and as an indication that I could hardly wait for it being ready to enter. After it was deleted (properly) by a moderator, I recognized that it probably was interpreted in a hurtful way. I apologize. But, I think we have to accept that someone has to have the judgement to make these calls, even if it appears heavyhanded on the surface. And, I trust the moderators here, who do a great job that we should all applaud.

I suggest the we have a flexible policy that:

1. Overtly political, ethnic, religious or nationalistic threads and posts are not appropriate for the forum.

2. Any comment that could be properly viewed as hurtful or degrading in a way that most members would feel inappropriate should not be permitted.

3. The above is conditional on allowing for fair and non-inflammatory comments that may indirectly touch upon the above if it is determined to be in humourous and brotherly manner.

4. The moderators of the forum should have full authourity and flexibility to enforce this policy in a fair and reasonable way.

Cheers

[Marc]

I also fail to see why this thread shold be closed. I disagree with the petition, but this is a valid and interesting discussion.

[Daniel]

As a moderator (although not of this forum), I'd like to see this thread stay. "General Discussion" was made for anything that did not fit into the other subjects, be it the Champions League or national elections. I'd like to see more sub-forums to avoid this, but it is not a shared opinion.

As for the Khadr's, from what I quickly read, I think it's weird to grant them citizenship "on the fly" to give them medical treatment.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

As for the Khadr's, from what I quickly read, I think it's weird to grant them citizenship "on the fly" to give them medical treatment.

Not sure about the boy, but Mama has been a citizen for 30 years.

[McBuster]

As to the issue of citizenship, it is not always cast in stone! The federal government has taken back many a persons Canadian Citizenship, once new information has been presented. Example would be WWII veterans that thought they could hide their past, being members of the Nazi party. Same thing happened for several people that tried and successfully claimed refugee status and then citizenship from Rwanda. If these people are found out and PROVED to have lied/deceivied about their past in order to get the one of the world's best citizenships, then yes, they do deserve to be stipped of their citzenship and sent back to Germany/Rwanda/Pakistan were ever they came from initially. Heck, the Canadian government will even pay for their flight back![}]

[Michael Crampton]

Just wanted to chime in to say that I found Gordon's initial comparison of George Bush to the Khadr's a little over-the-top (even though it was not supposed to be 100% literal; BTW I hate Bush as much or more than the next guy I just thought it made your argument seem trite and easy to characterize as anti-American) but other than that I agree with 100% with what he has said.

If you are a citizen you are 100% entitled to the rights and priviledges that such status grants you. Stripping citizenship should only be used in the rare cirmcumstances that it can be proved that citizenship was granted on false pretenses - if that can be proved here then I would have no objection to it.

Most importantly: we live in a ->liberal<- (in the classic, proper sense of the word) constitutional democracy for precisely this reason. There are certain rights, majority be damned, that being Canadian grants you. Anyone who signs this petition is giving in to the worst sort of knee-jerk, reactionary, my-way-or-the-highway anti-liberal (again classic sense of word) mob instincts to break the rules when someone says something you don't like and encouraging the politicians (Stockwell Day chiefly but there are many others) who are abusing this issue for their own benefit regardless of the consequences to our society. It's all well and good to pay lip service to the idea of free speech and free thought until someone actually says something that the overwhelming majority of the country vehemently disagrees with... this is a real test of whether or not you believe in the ideals that the West espouses and claims to be fighting for now in the War on Terror.

And Winnipeg it matters not one iota that the majority may agree with you. In fact, it simply proves why we need a constitution.

Mike.

[Winnipeg Fury]

INDEPTH: KHADR

Al-Qaeda Family: The firefight at Waziristan

CBC News Online | March 3, 2004

Reporter: Terence McKenna

Producers: Nazim Baksh, Michelle Gagnon, Alex Shprintsen

Editor: Avi Lev

Osama bin Laden After Sept. 11, 2001 Osama bin Laden and other senior figures in al-Qaeda left the city of Jalalabad, Afghanistan and fled south to the tribal areas that straddle the Pakistani-Afghan border.

For years these areas have been self-governing and self-policing, and the tribal leaders here were happy to give sanctuary to al-Qaeda members and their families in exchange for cash.

There have been sporadic military offensives to look for them ever since.

One such offensive by the Pakistani army took place on Oct. 2, 2003. Senior al-Qaeda figures were reported to be holed up in a house in the province of Waziristan on the Pakistani side of the border. The Pakistan army surrounded the house and demanded a surrender. An intense firefight broke out and two Pakistani soldiers were killed.

The battle raged on for hours.

Finally a Pakistani Cobra attack helicopter shelled the house.

After the attack, 18 prisoners were taken. Eight bodies were pulled from the rubble. The Pakistanis were disappointed they had not found Osama bin Laden. But they did find the body of another man long identified as a senior leader of al-Qaeda – a 57-year-old Canadian citizen named Ahmed Said Khadr who was born in Egypt.

Ahmed Said Khadr In late February 2004, in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad, Ahmed Said Khadr's wife, Maha, and 23-year old daughter, Zaynab, agreed to sit down for their first television interview since his death.

They have always claimed that Ahmed Said Khadr was not a terrorist. But now they say that he was proud to die as a shaheed, a martyr, a soldier of Islam.

"We believe that death comes when God had planned it, before He created the humanity, it's planned, so I just accept, [but] it hurt," Maha said.

"We believe dying by the hand of your enemy because you believe in… you're doing it in the way of Allah, that it's the best way to die," Zaynab told CBC. "My father had always wished that he would be killed… he would be killed for the sake of Allah. I remember when we were very young he would say, if you guys love me, pray for me that I get jihaded, which is killed."

Ahmed Said Khadr's wife, Maha, and 23-year old daughter, Zaynab At the Pakistani defence ministry in nearby Rawalpindi, Maj.-Gen. Shaukat Sultan has no doubt about the true identity of Ahmed Said Khadr.

"So he was certainly a terrorist… because… he did not surrender voluntarily on the offer that was made earlier before the operation went in," Sultan said.

"This man did not surrender. That was one. Number two, the firefight started and the firefight lasted almost for 12 hours. And those people who were killed they were certainly those who were fighting thoroughly with the army troops."

Ahmed Said Khadr's 14-year-old son, Karim, lies in the military hospital in Rawalpindi, shot in the spine in the same battle that killed his father. He is paralysed from the waist down.

Maha would be happy if her children died the same way. "You know we are promised that we go to heaven," she says.

Zaynab says, "I'd love to die like that. I'd love my daughter to die… even if [it is] simple, very simple, naïve," Maha says.

"Yeah it's heaven. It's heaven, you know," Zaynab says.

Ahmed Said Khadr's 22-year-old son, Abdullah, escaped the fighting that day because he was away from the house running an errand.

Abdullah Khadr He agreed to an interview only if we concealed his face, because he is still considered a wanted al-Qaeda fugitive in Pakistan. He says his father talked about becoming a martyr.

"Dying for Islam is… hopeful for every Muslim," Abdullah says. "Everybody loves to die for his religion," he says. "Every Muslim dreams of being a shaheed for Islam… like you die for your religion. Everybody dreams of this, even a Christian would like to die for their religion."

Two years ago, in Afghanistan, another of Ahmed Said Khadr's sons, Omar, now 17, was shot three times in a firefight with American troops.

Omar lost the sight of one eye. He is now in the infamous U.S. military prison at Guantanamo, Cuba, accused of killing an American soldier with a grenade.

Omar Khadr Maha is proud of Omar. "Of course. He defended himself," she says. "He just did not give any – you know, I thought they were very simple kids."

"If you were in that situation what would you have done? I must ask everybody that," Zaynab says.

"I hope you don't say, 'I would bow down.' No, no, no," Maha says. "Wouldn't you like your Canadian son to be so brave to stand up and fight for his right?"

"He'd been bombarded for hours. Three of his friends who were with him had been killed. He was the only sole survivor," Zaynab says. "What do you expect him to do, come up with his hands in the air? I mean it's a war. They're shooting at him. Why can't he shoot at you? If you killed three, why can't he kill one? Why is it, why does nobody say you killed three of his friends? Why does everybody say you killed an American soldier? Big deal."

[JayWay]

For those who are pulling the line that they have citizenship (true..strictly speaking..) and they have not commited a crime (also true..) and thus they are equal Canadians with all of us, let me ask you this (and I'm not contesting anything with this post. This is out of curiousity)

Do you believe this is an acceptable situation whereby our citizenship is set up so that it can be held against us in situations like this? Do you not have a problem with people like this claiming to be a Canadian?

[Moosehead]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

For those who are pulling the line that they have citizenship (true..strictly speaking..) and they have not commited a crime (also true..) and thus they are equal Canadians with all of us, let me ask you this (and I'm not contesting anything with this post. This is out of curiousity)

Do you believe this is an acceptable situation whereby our citizenship is set up so that it can be held against us in situations like this? Do you not have a problem with people like this claiming to be a Canadian?

I have a problem with people who are Canadian claiming not to be Canadian like Owen you know who.

Were not some of the Kader boys born in Canada. I don't think the children should be judged to the same extent as the father. They were under the control and influence of a father that was undoubtedly f.cked up or at least a stubborn fundamentalist that had his family in his control. One of the sons had direct conflict with the father and wanted to come back to Canada.

It comes down to the fact that when you live in a free and democratic society you have to take the good with bad and having freedoms involve making some sacrifices.

What I found worse was the Serbian refugee claimant living in Canada that was directly linked to the Masacre of civilian children. It seems he is avoiding justice and the Canadian government doesn't have much interest in pursuing this case. I would say a Refugee or Canadian Citizen and you committ a crime abroad you should either be extradited (with conditions) to face the charges or in certain circumstances be punished in Canada for the crime(s) committed abroad.

We should also protect our pasports. So in a sense your right, the Kaders losing their passports repeatedly I agree is an abuse and likely could have severe negative consequences for Canada. So, charge Ms. Kader for losing her passport. Don't issue a passport, issue a temporary Minister's Permit.

[Cheeta]

Geezus, Dwayne. Look at the **** you've disturbed.

The good news is you're all saved from another Cheeta rant. Toronto support, Gordon and others have made my points quite clearly. I thank you and will only add a few thoughts.

Very interesting to see this drama is having a seeming intense impact on a lot of people on both sides of the argument. And as usualy, it's all as clear as mud as to who is right and who is wrong.

(cue a soft instrumental of O Canada)

I'm only Canadian because of something my adventurious great, great, grandparents did. I am not Canadian by my own merit. That being said, I still consider myself a citizen by choice. I've choosen to be Canadian.

Same as Sharma from India, and Bevon from Guyanna and all those McKees from Ireland and uncountable numbers of others with their rainbow of accents.

There isn't a day where I'm ungrateful for it. It's a sort of nationalism which makes the world a dangerious place. But still, there it is. I hold it precious in every way and can not apologise for it.

The surviving Khadrs are citizens of Canada. If by due process they are found to have gained their papers by deception then so be it. Back to Pakistan with you.

If not, welcome home brothers and sisters. You've been too long away.

If Pakistan wants them back to face this trial or that, then by due process their Canadain citizenship will not shield them.

I can understand and relate very strongly to the anger many feel towards these people. I find it offensive that anyone would hide behind a flag of convience. Especially a Canadian one. But I cannot say that is the case here. And if it were, I'll put what little trust in the law that I have to judge the facts. Not the emotions of the mob, or the elected officials of our great parliment.

God save the Queen

Long live the Dominion of Canada

Peace, love, and understanding for all.

ZenCheeta

[Grizzly]

The suggestion that the Khadrs be extradited to Pakistan is not very likely. First the Pakistani government would have to want to prosecute them which is unlikely as they probably have far more important people to deal with. Second, Canada does not have an extradition treaty with Pakistan and probably not much case history in extradition to this country. With Pakistan's poor human rights record it would probably be very difficult to get such an extradition through the courts. Thus, whatever crimes the Khadrs may or may not have committed would be far more likely to be prosecuted in Canada than in Pakistan.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

Do you believe this is an acceptable situation whereby our citizenship is set up so that it can be held against us in situations like this? Do you not have a problem with people like this claiming to be a Canadian?

Of course I am not happy that people like this exist in my community...just as I am unhappy that we have holcaust deniers, racists, people who believe that MDs who perform abortions should be executed and a host of others with extreme views. But I am very happy to live in what is generally a tolerant, free and democratic society. That comes with costs, however. This is one of them.

[torontosupport]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The suggestion that the Khadrs be extradited to Pakistan is not very likely. First the Pakistani government would have to want to prosecute them which is unlikely as they probably have far more important people to deal with. Second, Canada does not have an extradition treaty with Pakistan and probably not much case history in extradition to this country. With Pakistan's poor human rights record it would probably be very difficult to get such an extradition through the courts.

We know.

[Grizzly]

quote:I recommend they not be stripped of citizenship, not charged with impossible to prove charges within Canada and not hounded by Canadian media. Instead, I recommend they be deported to Pakistan for the crime of - at the very least - tax evasion. Whether they are charged there with the theoretical crime of setting mines in hills that vapourized a Pakistani soldier who had 3 kids back home in Karachi is not my problem.

If you know then what is the point of making the above post????? Canadian citizens can not be deported to other countries. Only foreign citizens can be deported. The only grounds for sending a Canadian citizen to another country is criminal extradition.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If you know then what is the point of making the above post????? Canadian citizens can not be deported to other countries. Only foreign citizens can be deported. The only grounds for sending a Canadian citizen to another country is criminal extradition.

You have the nerve to say that Owen Hargreaves is not Canadian in your books in a post yesterday. Yet you defend these scum who use our laid back culture to support terrorism against our citizens. Great set of values you have there.