Mimglow Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Here is where we expose those who have shed their country of origin to make themselves richer or to have a better shot at winning championships. Rules are simple. 1. If the person moved to their second country before turning 15, they cannot enter the hall. 2. If the person moved changed nationalities believing they would benefit from improved fortunes, only to turn tail when those opportunities dried up, they are most definitely eligible (this is also know as the "Frederic Kanoute" rule). More rules to follow I am sure... Mimglow's Hall of Nationality Shame Owen Hargreaves Mark Bircham Lennox Lewis Marcel Desailly Monica Seles Martina Navratilova Ivan Lendl Alfredo di Stefano (who started the trend) Greg Rusedski Ben Johnson Brett Hull Frederic Kanoute Muzzy Izzet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 How does Frederic Kanoute get a rule by himself? He played for the France youth team, because he was born there. He jumped to and stayed with Mali ( his father was born there), so he didn't turn tail after jumping. And he, unlike most on the list, does not stand to make much money. Lennox Lewis was born in Britain, so it's like he just returned home. I notice that you don't have the numerous honourable African and Carribean immigrant (and not as kids, they still have their accents like De Rosario) track stars that have ran for Canada, just Ben Johnson. Double standard? My gauge is commitment to a country. Only Hargreaves on the list is an extreme example, as he has never lived in England (or Wales, which he originally was going to jump to until he got the last minute call from a WC-qualified England), and may never. di Stephano made a soild commitment to Spain, and has lived there since 1953, still on the board of Real Madrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Hmmmmm, Lennox Lewis was born in England of Jamaican parents, moved to Canada at like 11, learnt to fight, won an Olympic gold for Canada, went back to England (country of birth) to turn pro. I don't think he really took advantage of Canada and "repaid" his debt with an Olympic gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Keay Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by beachesl I notice that you don't have the numerous honourable African and Carribean immigrant (and not as kids, they still have their accents like De Rosario) track stars that have ran for Canada, just Ben Johnson. Double standard? DeRo is Scarborough born and raised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Ryan Keay Yeah, i know, I love his accent. He seems like a wonderful guy too. I was just stirring the pot. He obviously decided to curry his Carribean accent like many home-born Canadians of Italian ancestry keep up an "Italian" way of speaking English My whole point is that you can't pigeonhole people as being "from" Canada or "from" anywhere else. We are citizens of the world, and if we want to represent a country and that country wants us to, why not. The issue is moral, is what the athlete doing immoral in the total circumstances (ie: turning your back on those that supported and nurtured you as an athlete for no good reason)? Hargreaves is the extreme example on one end, Lennox Lewis is an example on the other end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varsity Tyler Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 According to these rules, Daniel Igali. Yep, he's not Canadian at all. It's not like he kissed the maple leaf after winning the gold or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Varsity Tyler According to these rules, Daniel Igali. Yep, he's not Canadian at all. It's not like he kissed the maple leaf after winning the gold or anything. Then how about I add a rule about leaving your country because of political/humanitarian strife? That would mean taking Navratilova and Lendl out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 Update Here is where we expose those who have shed their country of origin to make themselves richer or to have a better shot at winning championships. Rules are simple. 1. If the person moved to their second country before turning 15, they cannot enter the hall. 2. If the person changed nationalities believing they would benefit from improved fortunes, only to turn tail when those opportunities dried up, they are most definitely eligible (this is also known as the "Frederic Kanoute" rule). 3. If the person moved from one country to another because of political/humanitarian strife, they shall be omitted from the Hall of Nationality Shame. More rules to follow I am sure... Mimglow's Hall of Nationality Shame Owen Hargreaves Mark Bircham Lennox Lewis Marcel Desailly Monica Seles Alfredo di Stefano (who started the trend) Greg Rusedski Brett Hull Frederic Kanoute Muzzy Izzet Mauro Camoranesi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 You know, we (as in Canada, via Bruce Twamley & Holger Osieck) asked Bircham to come & play for us. It's not like he went on a Deion Sanders-like run to play for the highest bidder. He wasn't wanted by England, he was wanted by us. We came calling, he answered the call. This is the opposite situation with Hargreaves, which we've gone over on the V-boards countless times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Well, then you could spend the rest of your life compiling a list of players who fit under category #4. Go back & look at the rosters for the 1998 Jamaican & American World Cup Qualifying rosters just for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Well, then you could spend the rest of your life compiling a list of players who fit under category #4. Go back & look at the rosters for the 1998 Jamaican & American World Cup Qualifying rosters just for a start. I'll gladly expose any fraud if names are given with a small story (the point of the thread...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 You can add Lou Nanne to the list - he is perhaps the ultimate example from this country. And Adam Deadmarsh as well. There have been countless examples of Canadian hockey players who have done this. Can't really blame them - Bob Manno for one, was never going to play for Canada, but made quite a splash for Italy. There have been many Brits who played for Canada over the years. I don't really have a problem with people who are not going to make their national teams going elsewhere. I wish Canada didn't take advantage of that - a la Bircham - but its long been the way. I think adults should be able to "choose". Hull wants to be an American, well then fine. Hargreaves wants to be a Brit, fair enough too. But go the whole nine yards. If I had been born in the US, and somehow managed to grow up with the same values and ideals, then I would choose to live in Canada - as many americans have (and vice versa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Alright, I capitulate to rule #4, and will take it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack David Masciantonio, born in Canada, moves to Italy when he is young, now plays for our National Team (U-23). I don't think he even speaks English. I think its the same for De Jong (I stand to be corrected). I don't know how long he's been in Holland. David Trezeguet. He was born in France. Moved to Argentina when he was 2 years old. Went back to Europe to play for Monaco when he has 17/18, but couldn't speak a word of French, and now stars for their national team. There certainly are some complicated cases. Since the list is for fun (to a point), you'll have to excuse me for being arbitrary at times. Nonetheless, it is creating quite a debate, which is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoInferno Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I think half of the France team that won the world cup in 98 & euro 2000 was 'foreign' Desailly (already mentioned) Vieira (Senegal) Trezeguet (again mentioned) Djorkieff (Armenia) Ba (Senegal) Loko (i'm pretty sure he was born out of france but i may be wrong) Karembeu (New Caledonia) Lama (French Guiana) (ok not foreign, but close enough) Thuram (Guadalupe) (same as Lama) 9 out of 19 named to the team is quite a lot... That is only from the 98 WC team, from the euro 2000 team add: Wiltord (Guadalupe) so i guess what i'm trying to say is that its not just a british 'problem' but one with any large heterogenious nation ..forgive me for the heterogenious babble, i just got back from school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Djorkaeff is from Yemen, not Armenia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoInferno Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I thought it was Armenia, but i'll take your word for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest concur as safe Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Thierry Henry (Martinique) Nicholas Anelka (Martinique) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Fan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Well,I don't think these players should be shamed because they served their adopted countries well but heres more fuel for the fire. Enzo Scifo-Italy Christian Vieri-Australia Robbie Earl-England Carl Valentine-England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack Mauro Camoranesi of Juventus. Argentine born player, became an Italian citizen to play for Italy. Well, the way this is written seems to imply that his goal was always to play for Italy, but this wasn't the case. As he reached his peak and Argentina still didn't want him (he had never been considered for Argentina at any age level, and had not even played for any Argentinian first division club), he finally accepted the only offer he was getting. From what I've heard Argentinians don't even really care that he did this. So, yeah, technically he belongs on Mimglow's list given the rules, but I just wanted to point out that he's one of the cases where no one really cares (I guess you could say he's a Bircham, not a Hargreaves). We Canadians get all worked up over these types of things, probably because of Hargreaves, but not everyone does. It was strange when I made a big deal over Camoranesi to my Argentinian friend while he just brushed it off. All that being said, I don't think Camoranesi should be playing for Italy. Especially with Stefano Fiore around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew W Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 You can add Leicester defender Ben Thatcher to the list as he was just called up by Wales due to the grandfather rule. He had caps with the England U-21s. I think he's now 28 or something. What about Bryan Trottier and his playing for the US in the Canada Cup (1991?). As well, does garnering citizenship have any impact? If not, what about Pablo Mastroeni for the US, born and raised in Argentina. I believe Borgetti for Mexico is also Argentinian. And let us not forget the immortal Sean Dundee who I believe at one time had Germany, South Africa and Australia all vying for his services. I think he's in the Austrian Bundesliga nowadays. Don't rightly know what country he chose at the end of the day (not that it matters now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 So, we get all of the top stars of the world in the ROYAL YORK,fix them up with YONGE St.'s finest and nurture the offspring HMMMMM.Or tick off the British Home Countries (?) and finally do away with that ridiculous grandfather rule. Hargreaves , Bircham,enuff said Why does , WALES, SCOTLAND, N.IRELAND,PUERTO RICO etc. have their own National Ass'n's anyway.Aren't they politically in another country. This grandfather rule is antiquated.Let's go with 5 years residency and citizenship.It's where you live and pay taxes that count.Not that your grandfather slept once in Port-au-Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorontoInferno Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 quote:Vancouver Fan Posted - 02/09/2004 : 23:29:43 Well,I don't think these players should be shamed because they served their adopted countries well but heres more fuel for the fire. Enzo Scifo-Italy Christian Vieri-Australia Don't mean to be picky but Scifo was actually born in Belgium to Italian migrant parents. While Vieri was born in Italy, but moved relatively young to Australia with his family, so his father Lido could finish off his pro career there. Vieri's brother Massimiliano was actually born in Sydney, both can speak perfect if not australian english, and play cricket better than they do soccer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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