Repost: A Reason For Pessimism?

[Daniel]

I posted this on the 3rd page of the Can-USA OQ thread

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For WCQ, it has nothing to do with the squad or anything, but it just seems that the men's team always dissapoint. The U20's, while getting to the quarters, got rather lucky (0-2 against Brasil, 1-2 against Australia, 1-0 against Czechs, 1-0 against Burkina Faso - not the scariest opponent -, and a valiant 1-2 against Spain). Ultimately, that comes down to 2 wins, no draws and 3 losses.

I've been optimistic since the 2000 GC, but failures at every level of our men's programs and lack of goals in each has me questioning my blind optimism:

- WCQ 1998

[edit] - WCQ 2002

- Confed Cup 2001

- GC 2002 (where we beat Haiti and South Korea - the latter in a consolation final, tied the States and Martinique - both going to penalties - and lost to Ecuador)

- GC 2003 with a lucky win and a crushing loss

- OQs 1999

- OQs 2003

- a miserable 2001 WYC

- a decent 2003 WYC, still with a losing record

- U17s WCQ at home when we're favourite

How many goals have we scored in all these competitions combined (excluding the Virgin Islands series)? I'd wager less than half a goal a game. And that's beyond sad, that's downright pathetic.

I'll support Canada through and through and will make all WCQs I can and be the first to congratulate the team if we make the Hex, but I can't be the only one sweating bullets over our past record.

[nedved9]

I agree with you all the way Daniel. But I am a little bit more optimistic. (just a little) since the U20s I see Canada has started to turn turn the corner. a little bit. We are seeing players developing in EUROPE, AND TO SMALLER SCALE even in the MLs. But we still have a long way to go. Lets cross our fingers and hope we qualify for the Hex. And go from there.

[Gordon]

I think there are two ways of looking at this. I have no wish to be making excuses, but, perhaps some perspective is lost. If the illusion is that Canada can be a top 20 nation, then some of the results you are identifying are indeed disappointing. But if the illusion is that we are top 4 in CONCACAF - certainly an attainable goal IMHO, then those results are not so disapointing.

WCQ 1998 - finished 6th disappointing.

CONFED Cup - went as a result of being reigning champs. Did well enough compared to the most recent CONCACAF Champs.

GOLD CUP 2002 - Finished 3rd. Only one loss.

Gold Cup 2003 - Dissappointing on some levels, why though Costa Rica is a "lucky win" and Cuba not an "unlucky loss" (given the opportunities created) is up for question. I suppose the mental errors that led to both goals, and the fact that we generally played poorly is reason enough, despite the several glorious scoring chances that were created.

OQs 1999 & 2003 - disappointing (lets not trot out the excuses for 2003).

2001 WYC - went as winners of our half of CONCACAF. I don't see qualifying for any World Cup as disappointing. Sure, you'd like a win or two, or even a goal or two. But top 4 in CONCACAF is achieved.

2003 WYC - goals and wins. No disappointment at all.

U-17 WCQ - got some goals, had two of the top 3 non-canadian CONCACAF teams n qualifying. Finished tied for top spot and lost on goal diffence. Only mildly disappointing. And both teams that finished ahead of us (on goal diff) went to QFs in the U-17 WC. So how bad is that really.

You missed WCQ 2002 - Completely disappointing. The only major dissapointment of the bunch IMO. But in the biggest competition of them all.

On the whole, some of the things you list as disappointing, I don't. I am happy enough at this point when we hit a top four CONCACAF finish - because I think that is where we should be. Given our general lack of resources, the scattered nature of our players (if we can even secure their release) and inability to sit in camps for a month unlike our neighbours to the south, I dont think we can really complain about the results.

[Canuck Oranje]

Re: 2003 WYC. I think having two of our players listed as All-Stars needs to be considered significant. That is a listing by neutral observers.

Add to that, we have some excellent U-23s, DeGuzman, Klukowski, and Nsaliwa. And some teenagers that are doing very well with their professional clubs, David Edgar, Jonathon De Guzman, Marcel DeJong, Dylan Hughes, and more.

So I am not pessimistic as well

[Gian-Luca]

I would add what I mentioned in the other thread this was posted, that in the past 3 years (2002, 2004 & 2004) the only time we really had a full-squad, we went to the Q-F's of a World Cup. Not that I am saying we should expect to be finishing top 8 in the world in everything, just that we can do as well as we think we can when we have our full team. The same question always comes up again for World cup qualifying, and it will keep coming up again & again until it actually happens - are we going to get our full team (barring the odd injury) for qualifiers? If we end up missing as many of our top players in qualifying against teams that aren't missing as many of their top players, I think it will be a struggle. But there's no reason to assume the worst just yet. In fact, if there is one thing to be encouraged about with this tournament its the level of devotion that Julian De Guzman has shown to the Canadian team - that bodes very well for qualifying, where hopefully he won't be forced to play the day after & before jumping on a plane.

We also have to see what Yallop can do, and if he will have the beneficial effect that most US fans think he will.

PS - okay, we didn't get to the Q-F of the U17 tourney - but how meaningful is that, really, from a World Cup qualifying perspective?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

I posted this on the 3rd page of the Can-USA OQ thread

------------------------------------------------------------

For WCQ, it has nothing to do with the squad or anything, but it just seems that the men's team always dissapoint. The U20's, while getting to the quarters, got rather lucky (0-2 against Brasil, 1-2 against Australia, 1-0 against Czechs, 1-0 against Burkina Faso - not the scariest opponent -, and a valiant 1-2 against Spain). Ultimately, that comes down to 2 wins, no draws and 3 losses.

I've been optimistic since the 2000 GC, but failures at every level of our men's programs and lack of goals in each has me questioning my blind optimism:

- WCQ 1998

- Confed Cup 2001

- GC 2002 (where we beat Haiti and South Korea - the latter in a consolation final, tied the States and Martinique - both going to penalties - and lost to Ecuador)

- GC 2003 with a lucky win and a crushing loss

- OQs 1999

- OQs 2003

- a miserable 2001 WYC

- a decent 2003 WYC, still with a losing record

- U17s WCQ at home when we're favourite

How many goals have we scored in all these competitions combined (excluding the Virgin Islands series)? I'd wager less than half a goal a game. And that's beyond sad, that's downright pathetic.

I'll support Canada through and through and will make all WCQs I can and be the first to congratulate the team if we make the Hex, but I can't be the only one sweating bullets over our past record.

You stated that it just seems that the men's team always dissapoint. One can only dissappoint if they fail to live up to expectations. Therefore, they didn't dissapoint in my view because I didn't expect this group to fare any better than they did. They have been very consistant through and through. The problem was the expectations more than the team.

Regarding the Goal scoring problems, thats nothing new for canada. We have had problems scoring goals for ever it seems. Thats why I keep insisting that Rad is player who will determine how far we go in WCQ. The U20, the WYC tournament set up allows for four 3rd place teams to advance and we were one of the teams that did advance. We were full marks for that. My best case expectation was a berth in the round of 16 and the team exceeded that by going to the ¼ finals and taking a perennial powerhouse at these competitions to extra time. Nothing fluky about that and that is why optimism for that group is justified. Just Compare how this U20 squad played against Spain versus how the 2001 squad played against germany. Its like night and day.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I think there are two ways of looking at this. I have no wish to be making excuses, but, perhaps some perspective is lost. If the illusion is that Canada can be a top 20 nation, then some of the results you are identifying are indeed disappointing. But if the illusion is that we are top 4 in CONCACAF - certainly an attainable goal IMHO, then those results are not so disapointing.

Gold Cup 2003 - Dissappointing on some levels, why though Costa Rica is a "lucky win" and Cuba not an "unlucky loss" (given the opportunities created) is up for question. I suppose the mental errors that led to both goals, and the fact that we generally played poorly is reason enough, despite the several glorious scoring chances that were created.

I agree with Gordon; there are several reasons to be disappointed

but there were some positives as well. Don't forget we are ranked

#87 and not even #57. We need to play a lot of games, eventually

get a proper domestic league, and get a better infrastructure so that

it's a CSA that's not overly restricted by budgets or egos.

Easier said than done, but having Yallop on the MNT is a positive

on a public relations front, and hopefully on the field as well.

Let's hope we get an almost-full MNT roster available for WCQ,

then we can really gauge where we stand.

[Gian-Luca]

True enough Free Kick, though unlike yours my expectations were initially high, until we started to hear that we would likely be missing several key players. My initial optimism was based on having our full team, because I wasn't aware the FIFA ruling for this tournament had changed. When the rule change was discovered, I felt far less optimistic & said so (and am now wishing that Convey had been granted a work permit with Tottenham after all).

The US report of the match that I posted on the Olympic match thread (3rd page) indicates a very evenly played match, with Convey & Donovan combining on a couple of plays being the difference in the two teams. (I will leave aside the issue of the officiating, since I didn't see the match I can't really comment on it). Leaving aside the other notable absentees on each team, based on what happened yesterday I do believe the presence Hume & De Guzman could have cancelled out the edge Convey & Donovan gave the US, which is basically what I have believed all along. Sadly it just ends up as speculation, as we'll never know.

Ah well, on to some senior team friendlies now - where are they, by the way?

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

I posted this on the 3rd page of the Can-USA OQ thread

------------------------------------------------------------

For WCQ, it has nothing to do with the squad or anything, but it just seems that the men's team always dissapoint. The U20's, while getting to the quarters, got rather lucky (0-2 against Brasil, 1-2 against Australia, 1-0 against Czechs, 1-0 against Burkina Faso - not the scariest opponent -, and a valiant 1-2 against Spain). Ultimately, that comes down to 2 wins, no draws and 3 losses.

I've been optimistic since the 2000 GC, but failures at every level of our men's programs and lack of goals in each has me questioning my blind optimism:

- WCQ 1998

- Confed Cup 2001

- GC 2002 (where we beat Haiti and South Korea - the latter in a consolation final, tied the States and Martinique - both going to penalties - and lost to Ecuador)

- GC 2003 with a lucky win and a crushing loss

- OQs 1999

- OQs 2003

- a miserable 2001 WYC

- a decent 2003 WYC, still with a losing record

- U17s WCQ at home when we're favourite

How many goals have we scored in all these competitions combined (excluding the Virgin Islands series)? I'd wager less than half a goal a game. And that's beyond sad, that's downright pathetic.

I'll support Canada through and through and will make all WCQs I can and be the first to congratulate the team if we make the Hex, but I can't be the only one sweating bullets over our past record.

Daniel, I can understand your frustration and disappointment, but as a number of others have pointed out, you must be realistic in your expectations. We can have lofty goals, but need to have realistic expectations, especially when most of the time we are fielding hodge-podge teams who rarely get the chance to play together. We are ranked 87 for good reason. We can claim that we are better than 87, but we must get the results first. We can also claim that on paper we are much better than 87, but if we never get what is on paper onto the soccer field--and regularly--then we will never really see if this is true.

I find it unfair to dismiss what our U20s achieved in the UAE. I mentioned this in the Canada v. USA thread, but I want to say it here too. Mitchell and the lads earned a very good result in this tournie, and I am disappointed to here you say that they were simply "lucky". Yes, luck plays a role in sports--and in life--but as someone once said, you earn your luck. We were also "unlucky", especially against the Aussies--Hume nailed the crossbar, right--and should take the positives from this tournament, but take them with an optimistic grain of salt (if that is possible.) This was merely a step forward, but a good one, one that we should be encouraged by. But stay realistic. As the A-league improves, as our youth programs improve, we should continue to see more little steps forward. but they will be little steps. And really, did any of us think we WOULD beat the US this go around?

Vive le Canada!!