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the whore to go on loan?


shaku_bert

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One of the Southampton boards is saying that Owen is going on loan to Saints. First, I think thats baloney as he is a regular in his side right now. But second, I REALLY HOPE it baloney because I always hoped to have a canuck in the team I cheer for, but, cripes, anyone but that mook!

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quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

One of the Southampton boards is saying that Owen is going on loan to Saints. First, I think thats baloney as he is a regular in his side right now. But second, I REALLY HOPE it baloney because I always hoped to have a canuck in the team I cheer for, but, cripes, anyone but that mook!

I sense an inkling of hostility!? ;)

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Bayern hasn't been very pleased with his play this year which has been mediocre. He doesn't seem to have progressed much in the last year or so, he has been playing like an average Bundesliga player but average Bundesliga players don't usually play for Bayern (or for England for that matter). Oliver Kahn openly criticized his play in the press earlier this year. They may be looking at as new signing to upgrade at this position.

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That's just not true. Kahn's remarks were jumped on by other players including Ballack as unfair to Hargreaves. Owen only came back from injury in round 13, and has been playing 90 minutes a game ever since, during which spell they are undefeated. If you're going to go after Hargreaves for anything other than his decision to play for England, please back it up or join the long line of people who can't look at his play objectively.

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I’ve been having an interesting disc’n of Owen-gate on that Saints board. The prevailing thought is that he abided by the laws of the game re: eligibility and that makes it OK. My argument is that it is technically OK, but it was a poor decision on a deeper or moral level. Another interesting thing that came up from the discussion was from a poster from Toronto who was slating my position and defending Owen. I asked the guy if he was a UK ex-pat and if he followed our MNT. He’s from UK, been here 22 years and thinks our MNT is crap. His kid played with some of the current MNT squad and he believes they haven’t developed as players since they were kids. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but what gets me is how one can one can live and make a living in a country, raise a family here and not develop an attachment to the place (or at least not develop such a dismissive attitude to freakin’ national soccer team). OK, I DO recognize that one’s heart will always be with the team of the country you were born in so I’m not aggrieved if he cheers for England maybe even ahead of Canada but why be so negative about the Canadian program.

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To add to the original post in this thread, Bayern are playing Southampton next Monday, January 26th in England. Owen Hargreaves will be playing in that game, but for Bayern. Happy 23rd birthday Owen, from all of Canada's Voyageurs. :)

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quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

I’ve been having an interesting disc’n of Owen-gate on that Saints board. The prevailing thought is that he abided by the laws of the game re: eligibility and that makes it OK. My argument is that it is technically OK, but it was a poor decision on a deeper or moral level. Another interesting thing that came up from the discussion was from a poster from Toronto who was slating my position and defending Owen. I asked the guy if he was a UK ex-pat and if he followed our MNT. He’s from UK, been here 22 years and thinks our MNT is crap. His kid played with some of the current MNT squad and he believes they haven’t developed as players since they were kids. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but what gets me is how one can one can live and make a living in a country, raise a family here and not develop an attachment to the place (or at least not develop such a dismissive attitude to freakin’ national soccer team). OK, I DO recognize that one’s heart will always be with the team of the country you were born in so I’m not aggrieved if he cheers for England maybe even ahead of Canada but why be so negative about the Canadian program.

IS this Ex-pat aware that Emile Heskey plays for England? I mean, if not for David Beckham, England doesn't qualify for ANY major int'l tournaments as far back as I could remember! They're that close to being crap themselves!

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Tell you what, Hargreaves looked good against Celtic. One of Bayern's best players. How he's done in what time has been available to him otherwise I can't say. I do know that he's taken stick more than once publicly for his play, commitment, blah, blah, blah. If a loan is in the works I think it's a mutual parting of ways. OH looking out for OH. Who would have thought...

Oh, and by the by Owen haters, there's a certain energetic Englishman wearing hoops up Glasgow way who's gunning for a certain somebodys spot on the England roster and apparently to some effect. Now wouldn't that be nice? Twenty something years old and knowing your glory days are behind you. That should make father proud.

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quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

I’ve been having an interesting disc’n of Owen-gate on that Saints board. The prevailing thought is that he abided by the laws of the game re: eligibility and that makes it OK. My argument is that it is technically OK, but it was a poor decision on a deeper or moral level. Another interesting thing that came up from the discussion was from a poster from Toronto who was slating my position and defending Owen. I asked the guy if he was a UK ex-pat and if he followed our MNT. He’s from UK, been here 22 years and thinks our MNT is crap. His kid played with some of the current MNT squad and he believes they haven’t developed as players since they were kids. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but what gets me is how one can one can live and make a living in a country, raise a family here and not develop an attachment to the place (or at least not develop such a dismissive attitude to freakin’ national soccer team). OK, I DO recognize that one’s heart will always be with the team of the country you were born in so I’m not aggrieved if he cheers for England maybe even ahead of Canada but why be so negative about the Canadian program.

I disagree.

Who says all immigrants stick closely to their team of birth?

The co-founder of the Ultras, Mirza (that loud and brash fellow who went on about revolutions and such) was born in Bosnia. He never hid his heritage and the connection he held towards his land of birth, but it was fairly obvious to those who know him that Canada was his #1 in soccer terms. I saw him put more dedication (and money) into supporting the Nats than most supposedly "natural" Canadians who prance around like twits in Brazil or Italy kits and ignore the Canadian nats.

Stuborn "motherland" romantics like your British friend, whose been here for so long, shouldn't be provided with excuses, especially ones based on false assumptions that all immigrants are naturally going to associate with their home land first and foremost. That's just not true. Unfortunately, it may not be the norm, but the opposite is not the rule.

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quote:Originally posted by JayWay

I disagree.

Who says all immigrants stick closely to their team of birth?

The co-founder of the Ultras, Mirza (that loud and brash fellow who went on about revolutions and such) was born in Bosnia. He never hid his heritage and the connection he held towards his land of birth, but it was fairly obvious to those who know him that Canada was his #1 in soccer terms. I saw him put more dedication (and money) into supporting the Nats than most supposedly "natural" Canadians who prance around like twits in Brazil or Italy kits and ignore the Canadian nats.

Stuborn "motherland" romantics like your British friend, whose been here for so long, shouldn't be provided with excuses, especially ones based on false assumptions that all immigrants are naturally going to associate with their home land first and foremost. That's just not true. Unfortunately, it may not be the norm, but the opposite is not the rule.

Welcome to multi-culturalisim. The government has made it in vogue to keep your old heritage with you any way you want.

Except when it comes to hockey.

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quote:Originally posted by northboys

But we like how the Italy kit caresses and hugs our bodies...?

I told you to stop watching those Vidal Sasoon ads. You bring dishonour to the strong, rugged, naturalist Canadian image.

Now listen here, I'm a 17th generation lumber-jack, right.. My family's history is rooted in the Boreal forests of Toronto. So I say, if those Italians can get kitted up in their fancy garmets and what not, then us Canadians should be kitted up in true Canuck fashion as well.

From here on in, I demand Adidas outfit our boys with the finest...erm...with the only all flanel soccer kits... in the world!

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quote:Originally posted by JayWay

I disagree.

Who says all immigrants stick closely to their team of birth?

Maybe not ALL immigrants, but you have to say its the HUGE majority (I would estimate at least 98%)! Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with supporting the nation one grows up in ahead of any other nation. I mean you wouldn't cheer for Canada first and foremost if you moved to England? Even after you were in England for 10, 20, or 50 years? ... Should I have dropped everything I was doing last Sunday to watch the US-Denmark game? Not a chance in hell!! (especially since Real Madrid were playing at the same time) :D

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As a Canadian ex-pat who has lived in the UK for the last 9 years (other than one spent in the Netherlands), I have to say that I am a committed Canadian national team supporter and hate England. I have never liked their style of play or their in my opinion inflated sense of ability. I relish every match where someone like Macedonia ties or beats them.

And I do not feel ashamed to admit it. I see myself still when it comes to my origin as being Canadian and not English. I am certain that if I had children, they would be English. And while I am primarily an economic migrant to the UK, I do love London and living in London which is a true multi-cultural city as opposed to Toronto's claim.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ed, I haven't read this forum for a while so am late answering your post. I will state outright that I don't respect OH or his decision and feel some Schadenfreude when he plays poorly. I also have the impression you seem to like him and do not have a big problem with him playing for England. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. I do not, however, let my opinion of OH as a person affect my judgement of his soccer performances. I have seen him play a great deal having lived in Germany for so long. He certainly made a big splash at the beginning both in the Bundesliga and Champion's League and it seemed he would be a future Bundesliga star. I think he played well and continually improved up to and including his World Cup appearances. Since then he has been inconsistent and average and seems stuck at the same level of play. No he has not been terrible, has maintained his starting spot on Bayern and usually plays 90. But he has changed from a prominent member of Bayern to a largely anonymous one, from a future superstar to an average Bundesliga middlefielder. Average Bundesliga players play for Wolfsburg and Rostock and not Bayern. Two years ago OH seemed to have far more potential than DeGuzman or Stalteri, this year DeGuzman has completely outperformed him and Stalteri is at the least his equal despite playing out of position. Kahn as teammate and team captain obviously should not have made his comments publicly. The reaction of other teammates was the usual one (kind of like Jacques Martin's saying yesterday that Lalime's play wasn't the reason the Sens lost to Dallas 5-3 despite the fact that an amateur goalie should have been able to stop the 4th and 5th goals.) I have heard Kahn interviewed many times and he is quite intelligent and has very good analytical comments on the game (he is much smarter than he looks). In fact I think he is one of the most knowledgeable players in the Bundesliga so if he thinks that OH is a weak spot on the team, I would take his opinion seriously. Bayern is a very well run and smart team so if they feel that he is a risk of losing value (his transfer value is already artificially high in England because he is a national team player) they will definitely transfer him before his stock dips. There is no doubt that at his present level of play, they could upgrade at his position through a transfer. I think he has about 12 to 18 months to both improve his current play and show that he will develop into the player that Bayern expected he would become. If this does not happen he will be playing in a middle table Premiership side soon. While I do not wish him well in this endeavor and in fact hope that he fails, I will not let this cloud my judgement of his actual play. Nor am I one of the people that think he wouldn't have helped our MNT. We only have three players I consider A level, DeGuzman, Stalteri and Radz although Aguair may be a fourth. Certainly Hargreaves even in present form would be an A level player for us. And even if a destroying midfielder is not something we lack nor what we most require, we certainly don't have a destroying midfielder at his level with also some scoring and passing upside (again this may be a role Aguair could fill however even two such midfielders at this level would be awesome and difficult for attackers to penetrate). I do have my doubts about whether he would have been committed and regularly show up for our MNT but on playing level he would have definitely been an asset.

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Your impression is right. I do like him and do not have a huge problem with him playing for England. I always hoped he would play for us but once he made the decision, I figure it's his life. He is still a loyal Canadian in my books, returns home for his holidays, maintains his friends here, etc. But on topic, I do disagree with your analysis of his play. He was playing at way less than 100% throughout the beginning of the season and, despite the criticism from Kahn, was not the reason Bayern fared poorly early on. Since his rehab of his injury, he has been one of Bayern's better players in recent games and is once again pencilled in to start for Bayern after the break. And in my opinion, Aguiar is not close to Hargreaves in ability, although it is close to 10 years since I've seen him play; but I did see him play enough in the 90s. It's amazing how players like Aguiar and Jazic magically seem to grow in terms of ability the more time they are away from the Canadian team. Julian de Guzman is the real deal however, and very well could outshine Hargreaves in the near future. This is his season to go to that next level and he has the ability to lift people's asses off their seats (which not many Cdn players do).

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And to answer bettermirror's post (snuck in while I was composing a response to Monsieur Grizzly), Southampton got almost 30,000 people out for that midseason friendly (Bayern were on break, looking for games; Southampton no doubt pocketed a bit of coin).

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Ed, I can imagine several reasons why a person would not be bothered by his decision, for example, someone for whom nationality is not important, but how you can call him a loyal Canadian is beyond me and any sort of reasoning I can think of. It's not like he has a choice of which country to visit his parents in considering they live here. He may himself prefer living in Canada to any other country but this does not make him a loyal Canadian either. A loyal Canadian would want to represent Canada over any other country.

I don't think I have ever seen Aguiar play which is why I use the word "may" in describing his possible playing level. A player can certainly improve a great deal in 10 years. Considering he is competing for a starting spot on a top team in a pretty good league with a Portugese National Team Player and often winning the battle to start, I would think he is a pretty decent player. Of course we will both have to wait and see whether he suits up for our NT and how he performs.

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