hamiltonfan Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Why don't we try to make the V Cup offical the naional champion. We should write a letter and e-mail to the CSA on behave of all the Voyageurs. It's worth a try and I will write the letter or a few people can and then we could pick the best one but what would you guys like in it? I have some thoughts but i would like to know yours. what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I totally agree ! We have nothing to loose in trying that Let's go ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 what does everyone else thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco07 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I would be for this idea...The V-Cup already involves our top clubs, which play in the A-league...and they would be playing eachother twice a year so there would be no need to make a specialized schedule. If the CSA got involved they could throw some cash out to the club who makes it to the Concacaf tournament that would pay for expenses. Also the Canadian government, if they ever get involved at this level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin lechelt Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I don't like the idea. The V-Cup is not an Open Cup and only an open format can truly claim to produce a national champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 whats the concacaf tournament called agian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 The V-Cup is bound to see changes in its format in the coming years. What we need is a corporate sponsor and then make it an open Canadian cup, instead of limiting it to A-League teams. This would involve a lot of work, careful business planning. Basically, a structure with the key people permanently involved. And a commitment from the Voyageurs to support the idea, whichever format is finally decided upon. If we can't close ranks with our own people, then how the hell are we going to convince the business community and the separate clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 The Net-DX Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 The V-Cup is NOT a cup The trophy is a cup, the format is the one of a championship So, I don't see why the winner couldn't be officially Canadian champion If you want an "open cup", let's make another tournament. More difficult to organize. But keep the V-Cup as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 ok heres the letter i just wrote. how do you like it, what should be add what should be taken out? Dear: Canadian Soccer Association On behave of the Voyageurs we would like to make a proposal for the winner of the Voyageurs Cup to become the official national cup and the winner to become the official national champions. If you were to agree on making the Voyageurs Cup winner the official national champion the team could go on to the Concacaf Champions Cup. The A-League schedule pits all Canadian teams against each other at least twice (sometimes more of course). We then choose two of those dates to count for the Voyageurs Cup. We could try to get corporate sponsors and you guys could pitch in some money so that we have prize money for the winning team. They would be able to use the prize money for the expenses when they go to the Concacaf Champions Cup. The Voyageurs strongly think that this should be done, as it’s another step in the right direction for soccer in Canada to have one of its team in the Concacaf Champions Cup. We will be able to work this out in more details. Thanks for your time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 No offense, but I don't think that will do. We're not selling cookies here. This is a big proposal (impact wise - no pun intended), so we just can't come out and say "hey, how about we make the V-cup the national competition???). The beginning should first state outright the purpose of the letter, so the reader isn't left wondering wtf this is about. However, the first portion should introduce the reader to the competition's history and the organization. For this we can take bits and pieces from the press releases or the website. We should focus strongly on airing our grievances and why we think this is needed; reflect on the crummy status of Canadian domestic soccer. Then finally, offer up our proposal as a sollution. Or we can do it visa-versa: portraying the domestic situation as crap in the first part then oferring up a solution and blending the summary of the competition's history with that. A cause and effect type structure. Hit on all the obvious points, like the fact we already have established a relationship with the A-league clubs and the press, and are accepted as a bonafied competition and marketed as such by each of them. Convince them that the V-Cup is a recognized name for those who follow the A-league (it's mentioned ad nauseum on A-league broadcasts that I have seen) and that the "infrastructure" is there for the CSA to build on and really construct a succesfull cup competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Also, don't refer to the CSA as "you guys" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan ok heres the letter i just wrote. how do you like it, what should be add what should be taken out? Dear: Canadian Soccer Association On behave of the Voyageurs we would like to make a proposal for the winner of the Voyageurs Cup to become the official national cup and the winner to become the official national champions. If you were to agree on making the Voyageurs Cup winner the official national champion the team could go on to the Concacaf Champions Cup. The A-League schedule pits all Canadian teams against each other at least twice (sometimes more of course). We then choose two of those dates to count for the Voyageurs Cup. We could try to get corporate sponsors and you guys could pitch in some money so that we have prize money for the winning team. They would be able to use the prize money for the expenses when they go to the Concacaf Champions Cup. The Voyageurs strongly think that this should be done, as it’s another step in the right direction for soccer in Canada to have one of its team in the Concacaf Champions Cup. We will be able to work this out in more details. Thanks for your time Whoa, hold on hamiltonfan. Don't do anything yet. For one thing, since the Voyageurs Cup has started Matt and I have communicated with the CSA and especially all the A-League clubs, so I think all Voyageurs Cup-related stuff should go through us as we represent the Voyageurs in this regard. More from me on this later, but as I've said before I don't like the idea of making the Voyageurs Cup official and I don't like the idea of corporate sponsorship even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by JayWay No offense, but I don't think that will do. We're not selling cookies here. This is a big proposal (impact wise - no pun intended), so we just can't come out and say "hey, how about we make the V-cup the national competition???). The beginning should first state outright the purpose of the letter, so the reader isn't left wondering wtf this is about. However, the first portion should introduce the reader to the competition's history and the organization. For this we can take bits and pieces from the press releases or the website. We should focus strongly on airing our grievances and why we think this is needed; reflect on the crummy status of Canadian domestic soccer. Then finally, offer up our proposal as a sollution. Or we can do it visa-versa: portraying the domestic situation as crap in the first part then oferring up a solution and blending the summary of the competition's history with that. A cause and effect type structure. Hit on all the obvious points, like the fact we already have established a relationship with the A-league clubs and the press, and are accepted as a bonafied competition and marketed as such by each of them. Convince them that the V-Cup is a recognized name for those who follow the A-league (it's mentioned ad nauseum on A-league broadcasts that I have seen) and that the "infrastructure" is there for the CSA to build on and really construct a succesfull cup competition. JayWay is right. For each of our press releases Matt and I usually go through 3 or 4 versions before it is ready, passing it back and forth to be carefully (sometimes too carefully!) edited. I think we have been successful in portraying a very professional image through our press releases and letters and other communications with the clubs involved. Finally, let's make this clear: only a few Voyageurs have agreed to this whole idea. Before going through with it we would need a major and well-organized vote. This means more than asking "do you like this idea?". It means discussing what the whole thing entails, which will take some thought. Some people donated a lot of money and all of them deserve a say --- I don't think anyone in this thread is even part of this group (apologies if I'm wrong), so you can't go deciding for those who are. I appreciate the enthusiasm from hamiltonfan and others in this thread but we have to handle these things properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 jayway i agree with you about the letter format. I'm really not that good of a writer(kinda younger) but i thought i would give it a try. maybe you should give it a try. DTJ or Matt mabye you guys could write a letter too and we could see what one we like better or you and Matt write it together then send it to the CSA and post it here. mabye a letter to the league teams too?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco07 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I agree, the V-CUP is not a "CUP". It is a League within a league that pronounces a Canadian Champion for teams that participate in the A-League. And since the A-League is the highest level of play within Canada, the V-Cup should crown a Canadian Champion for the Concacaf Champions Cup. The V-CUP is not an Open Cup for any Recreational League team to participate in, even if they are part of the CPSL or PCSL. I think it was originally designed for A-League clubs. Trying to change it so that it would include other clubs would be absurd, and more importantly add unnecessary costs. The USL already makes a schedule, so thats one thing we do not have to create on our own. This schedule pits all Canadian teams against eachother at least twice (sometimes more of course). We then choose two of those dates to count for the V-CUP and Bingo...We now have a mini-League within another. If it were recognized by the CSA, and they put their financial backing with it, than by next year we could have a team playing in the Concacaf Champions Cup. It is very cost efficient for all parties. The Canadian A-League clubs wont have to spend extra money to travel, to lets say Victoria or Halifax, to play in an Open Cup. This way they stick with their schedule, and we the fans get a club to represent us. Once it starts to pick up and we start to get more exposure, than we can decide on changing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Marco07 The USL already makes a schedule, so thats one thing we do not have to create on our own. This schedule pits all Canadian teams against eachother at least twice (sometimes more of course). We then choose two of those dates to count for the V-CUP and Bingo...We now have a mini-League within another. If it were recognized by the CSA, and they put their financial backing with it, than by next year we could have a team playing in the Concacaf Champions Cup. Marco you're right of course. The goal of this whole discussion is clear: Have a Canadian club recognized as the official Canadian representative at the Champions Cup. Once that is accomplished we can look at expanding. And of course I agree with DJT. A lot of people gave up their hard-earned cash to see this project become reality (and unfortunately I wasn't one of them). That in effect makes them stakeholders and they get to say what happens with the cup. But that doesn't stop us from discussing it and coming up with suggestions. Now who's share can I buy to get a vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 why dont we try to get all the a-league teams on board and then start talking to the CSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Just weighing in on a couple of points here--I really should be working but I'm ever so lazy. First, it's really, really hard to make the VCup work in any "official" format because it's run by a bunch of guys. Not a club or organization, but a bunch of guys. That means that we would have a hard time (a) deciding what to do, ( expressing that decision clearly and coherently, and © executing on the decision. You'll have to take my word for now that the VCup as it currently stands takes literally hours of work every game week. It is often the case that DJT and I don't have the time to accept the help that others offer simply because we're able to put one press release together, send it out, and that's it. There are calls and e-mails to the clubs (and from the clubs), new ideas to act on (e.g. we started asking the clubs to do stadium announcements--guess where the copy for those had to come from!), arrangements to make, money to send around... tons to do. We're able to do it this way, though, because only a limited number of people are involved, and the total cost to the clubs so far has been about $100 (the Impact graciously sprang for a hotel room for me last year!). So let's look at the problems that joining forces with the CSA would cause. At least half the Voyageurs would be dead set against the idea to begin with. The amount of work to do through the competition would at least double. Decisions, new ideas, maybe even press release copy would have to be run by the CSA before we acted, causing delays. The CSA is under-manned already; we couldn't expect them to take on any of our current responsibilities or any of the new responsibilities--meaning they would land on us. And we're more under-manned and under-funded than the CSA! And what about joining with a sponsor? They might want complete control over the public face of the VCup--we might not have any say about what's in the press release. Any number of Voyageurs might be morally opposed to any kind of sponsor--what if we ended up with a beer company? A car company? Kraft (owners of tobacco companies)? A bank? A drug company? A media company? Many of the contributors might be upset at their money, in the end, buying face time for a big corporation. Now, I can think of ways that we could get a sponsor in a limited way--say, if we got someone to put up $20 grand or something to hold an actual VCup final (like the Can-Am Cup final), where the sponsor's only involvement would be with the final game, thus the tropy would not become the Acme Voyageurs Cup or whatnot. But even that kind of relationship is laced with complications and difficulties. Despite what it might seem, though, I'm not completely opposed to either idea. However, I am very much opposed to jumping in without figuring things out first--in great detail. And just figuring out how we should organize, how we should come to a consensus, is our very first order of business if we want the VCup to become more than it currently is. And by the way, I don't like the idea of anyone just saying "on behalf of the Voyageurs" without getting the majority consent of the Voyageurs. I've been saying it in any VCup communications, but that's because I'm the Voyageurs' mouthpiece for the Cup (and if anyone else wants the job, they're welcome to apply--it's not all hotel rooms in Montreal though!). Let's not jump into just e-mailing the CSA with every idea before we run it through the ol' V-board wringer, huh? (I know that's what you did, Hfan, but I get nervous.) Oh, one other thing. Mimglow, you mentioned that you wish you could have contributed to the Cup--I think we might do something like that in the future to allow others to "officially" be a part of it. However, we still are pretty far away from burning through the cash we collected two seasons ago, if memory serves, so a cash donation might not be the best way to do so. We'll have to figure something out, though, because it's not fair to anyone who wasn't around for the two-week 2002 "pledge drive" to keep them on the outside. The floor is open to ideas. But then the floor is always open to ideas. Though if anyone says silvertrophy.com I'm gonna clock 'em. Allez les Rouges, M@ P.S. Work duly avoided. Mission accomplished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 i really like the idea of having a cup final. mabye you and DJT should talk to all the teams about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan i really like the idea of having a cup final. mabye you and DJT should talk to all the teams about that. I like the idea, too. But before we talk to the teams, we need cash/sponsorship, a clear plan for organizing and promoting the event, a venue, and a clear and coherent position on the matter from the majority of the Voyageurs--whatever that means. Let me know when those are ready, and I'll get on the horn. Allez les Rouges, M@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 why dont you send an e-mail to molson, canadian tire, esso ect... and see what company will sponsor and give the most cash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 A generous CSA would approach us, indicate our model was a good one, offer sponsorship and logistic support. The Cup would keep our name. The winner would be national champ and qualify for the Concacaf competition. Though I don't think that will happen, and "you guys" have this idea that they have to organize a tournament. They owe a lot to Canadian clubs, who they've supported too weakly and under-respected. I for one would love for them to get a few rounds of regional eliminations into place, and come up with a national final tournament for the 4 strongest teams, semis and final. Then the V-Cup can stay it's own modest self, and we can control it, love it, and not have to share it. Probably better not to have to help the CSA with it. As is the only real risk I can see if the A-League schedules in a way that would make its criteria for being awarded unbalanced. And thus open to criticism, as opposed to now, where it has been a fair reflection of the state of the club's in Canada with Impact's two wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact supporter Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 DJT, Mimglow: You may want to look at this site: http://www.rugbyontario.com/upload/536.doc Go to page 5 and the suggestion for an alternative system to the RCSL(Rugby Canada Super League) could be used as a model for a Canada Open Cup where there are regional playdowns for and the National Championship becomes an East-West final. What I was thinking is that with this format there would be 8 teams 4 professional clubs and 4 amateur clubs. The professional and amateur clubs would play in regional derbies - Pacific, Praries, Central and Atlantic - and the winners wouold go on to represent the region in the Open Cup. One possible advantage to this is it would reduce travel costs as the regional playdowns would replace the 10-team finals weekend done with the current Challenge Cup. Thoughts?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted November 24, 2003 Author Share Posted November 24, 2003 DJT or matt do you think you'll e-mail companys about sponsorship?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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