Impact supporter Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Pony : You may want to look at http://www.rugbyontario.com/upload/536.doc goto page 5 This was just one suggestion for reorganizing the Rugby Canada Super League into smaller conferences. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Isn't Saskatoon like 3 times bigger than Regina? Practically the same size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy The hypothetical CEO of a hypothetical corporation I approached about corporate support for this hypothetical league wanted to know who the hypothetical teams were Not to take the piss out of you, but it is all just speculation and it makes every bit as much sense to speculate about teams and divisions as it does potential sponsors, marketing strategies and travel schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 quote:The hypothetical CEO of a hypothetical corporation I approached about corporate support for this hypothetical league wanted to know who the hypothetical teams were Not to take the piss out of you, but it is all just speculation and it makes every bit as much sense to speculate about teams and divisions as it does potential sponsors, marketing strategies and travel schemes. No piss taken thanks:)....speculate all you want about teams and divisions etc., but it gets tiring after awhile. We all know there are about 12-18 markets in Canada that could sufficiently support a professional soccer team based on population, demographics, and stadia etc.. I keep seeing a thread like this every few weeks. My only beef is that I hardly see ideas that could potentially keep a franchise or even a league afloat instead of folding. Franchises seem to come and go in Canada and only a few have managed the staying power. As a follower of Canadian Soccer this troubles me as much as on field futlity in the National Team program. I thought it was refreshing to see someone state a sponsorship idea. I'd like to see more, because eventually they might lead to something more concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 the crowds that canada will draw this summer for wcq06 will really be the push for a domestic league,where are the games?montreal?edmonton,hamilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Isn't Saskatoon like 3 times bigger than Regina? Uhh no. Saskatoon has 232,600 people and Regina has 200,455 people. But Regina has way more homeless people who get ignored by censuses, so we're closer by like 50 people or so This weekend we'll be way bigger than Sassytown too. My model for a Canadian league has always been - grow the A-League teams, create some stability. When the time is right (ie there are people who want to invest and national TV stations who want to televise us) we break away and create our own national league with about eight teams. We should make a big splash about the new league, but we could still retain a partial inter-locking sked with the A-League (sort of how MLB has American and National League inter-lock) and compete for an A-League title while still battling for a Canadian title as well (in something like, oh say, an Open Cup.) When I first proposed that I thought it was wishful thinking with Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and a Calgary PDL team. We'll have five teams next year and Ottawa and Hamilton aren't too far off. Get those seven in and give them two or three years to build up a fan base and establish themselves, then you could launch a new league with a big marketing blitz and add Winnipeg or Saskatoon as an expansion team. Let teams slowly become competitive and build as they find enough players and develop players who are ready to play at that calibre. That's just my two bits. cheers, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Looks like it just may happen that way. I just hope the aren't anymore setbacks like in Calgary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 The league should start out with 10 teams to begin with. It should be several years before expansion beyond should be even considered. I'm more in favour of the single table. Edmonton Calgary Toronto Montreal Vancouver 5 from the next list to round out the league: Victoria Regina Saskatoon Winnipeg Hamilton Ottawa Quebec City Halifax St John's NF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pony Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Here in lies the problem for forming a nationwide league from the start: You have a relatively small population but a massive landmass. Attempts in other parts of the world to produce a soccer league on this 'big' of a scale have encountered great difficulty along the way. Take for example the MLS. I believe it was just a few years back that they were considering contraction, because of financial problems. They have rebounded, to some degree, but not without backing of the worlds largest economy and support from the highest levels of government (both political and economic) Canada cannot use this model, because we simply don't have the resources nor the higher level support to jump start an endevour on that scale from scratch. Even our beloved hockey teams(excluding Van and TO) have had financial problems in the last decade. Danny Boy I agree that the CPSL and PCSL haven't aquired the kind of support required to form a full professional league, However, there hasn't been a big push to interconnect these leagues, nor to form similair leagues out east and on the praries. My idea would be to first start semi-pro leagues in those areas, then produce some sort of affiliation between them. Once it has been proven that teams from the regions are viable, then plans can made to form a more national league, along with any other stable teams wanting to join (by that I mean the current A-League franchises). Bottom line, a ground up approach best suits an endevour such as this in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 quote:Danny Boy I agree that the CPSL and PCSL haven't aquired the kind of support required to form a full professional league, However, there hasn't been a big push to interconnect these leagues, nor to form similair leagues out east and on the praries. My idea would be to first start semi-pro leagues in those areas, then produce some sort of affiliation between them. Once it has been proven that teams from the regions are viable, then plans can made to form a more national league, along with any other stable teams wanting to join (by that I mean the current A-League franchises). Bottom line, a ground up approach best suits an endevour such as this in Canada. Pardon me if I am being too anal about this idea, but I just wanted to clarify. If, for instance, there is already the CPSL and the A-League in and around Toronto, and they are already struggling for fans and cash flow, why would you want to start another regional league? Not only would you have to compete for fans, but for players as well. To me that doesn't makes sense. What does to me, is someone or a group of people say the CSA or The Voyageurs, go to the CPSL, PCSL, A-League and say "hey I have an idea that could benefit all of us. Instead of all of us competing for what little market share there is, let's team up and create something worthwhile." The Canadian Soccer system seems still very fragmented, and that is a huge part of the problem. No one is on the same page and everyone has different plans. That makes it all very non-progressive. Believe me I'm all for grass roots, club-like development with the Whitecaps, and the whole European way of doing things. From a purely soccer developmental focus, that makes sense. But for the business side of things, things are not very clear in Canada. Teams and leagues have a habit of folding, and it's not from a lack of talent. There are about 800,000 registered players in this country, and countless unregistered. It's a lack of business planning. Every successful soccer country, or sporting country has a pyramid structure, we have a 2x4, maybe a rhombus, or a parallelogram..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin lechelt Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 What we need is a real national Open Cup first. Put any sponsorship money into the prize structure for the Cup. Let the winner represent Canada in the CONCACAF cup winners cup (or whatever it is called). If the U of A Golden Bears cream the new Aviators or the Whitecaps ... so be it ... give them the big bucks and send them to the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 quote:Originally posted by martin lechelt What we need is a real national Open Cup first. Put any sponsorship money into the prize structure for the Cup. Let the winner represent Canada in the CONCACAF cup winners cup (or whatever it is called). If the U of A Golden Bears cream the new Aviators or the Whitecaps ... so be it ... give them the big bucks and send them to the tournament. Possible violation of CIS rules. A national league should be the priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 So, how do you create a league without demand,or demand a league without support? I'm too apres pos, it will happen , but you can't make it happen. Hey , I'd love a national elite league with 4 or 5 regional leagues in a pyramid system.But my pockets ain't deep enough are yours? I know; I use too many analogies with other sports.......but why do we have 6 NHL teams 3,? AHL teams and 56 or so CHL teams: cuz the demand and players are there. The marketplace will decide when we are ready for such a league. I wish I could contribute more to this topic , but that's how I see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Okay, correct me if I am wrong. There about 800,000 registered soccer players, countless of other players who play recreationally on a sunday morning at your local flat greenspace. Tonnes of local, amateur, semi pro, pro, men's and women's leagues across this country. There is a definite undercurrent of soccer in this country. So there is support and demand. Or else this website would not exist. So there is already the groundworks for a pyramid structure in this country. The PCSL, CPSL, A-League teams and all the other amateur soccer associations have players and their own organization. But they are almost all working against eachother and not together. With this already in place, you don't need anyone with huge dollars to set something up from scratch. You need someone to get the parties together to figure out how everyone will benefit and who fits where on the pyramid. Unfortunately, it seems that everyone wants their pice of the pie but doesn't want to take the risk. Sound like the CSA? However, the CSA did make an effort with the blueprint, but they said it was bullet proof. So in typical Canadian fashion everyone (including myself) lined up with their guns and shot it down. I'm not saying it was perfect but it was an effort nonetheless. We need more of that type of thing to get this league going. Sponsorhip and ownership on one side, the CSA all the leagues etc., on the other. Sit down negotiate, and hash something out. Create investment/business opportunities so all parties can reap some financial benefit. I believe we already have the pieces, we just need creative people to put them together. Let me know if this makes sense to you. I'm having fun trying to get my point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 People have to start separating people who play soccer with people who watch soccer. Plenty of people love to play soccer but many (including long-time high calibre players) will not follow, and barely watch a local pro game. They watch Euro, the WC and occasionnal Saturday mornings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pony Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 I think that myself Danny boy and Martin are trying to say the same thing from different angles. Danny, if I'm not mistaken, would like to see some consensus between all the SA's in canada and someone to step forward financially to support that affiliation. Martin wants to see a national open cup. I'm trying to add that because of canada's size, looser affiliations are neccesary at the begginng. Now if an org like the CSA (or the Voyageurs for that matter), would make a call for volunteers for a task group for this 'project', I think that would be a good first step. In the meantime, people in area like the praries and Atl Canada might want to start talking locally about the establishment of CPSL/PCSL type leagues in their areas. Then 'task force VC' can liase with the 'pres' of these hypothetical leagues, the CPSL, PCSL, A-league franchises and the CSA and from thir input set up a skeleton for a national open cup. Once everyone is on board, and in the meantime while this organizing is taking place, work to find a sponsor(s). Then when you have a working financial and cup structure worked out, you can finalize dates, venues, support details for clubs. Once this cup works for a few years and gains popularity(meaning bums in stands), you can talk about forming a national league. I encourage everyone to add their two cents. Pony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel People have to start separating people who play soccer with people who watch soccer. Plenty of people love to play soccer but many (including long-time high calibre players) will not follow, and barely watch a local pro game. They watch Euro, the WC and occasionnal Saturday mornings. You're right....I didn't clarify on that issue. I was just using the 800,000 from the development standpoint. That there is a supply and demand for the pyramid structure with that many members. It's anyone's guess as to how many would come out and support in the attendance side of things. I like Edmonton's idea of tickets to the local soccer association. That's an excellent way to form a link between the team and community. Too bad Swangard isn't big enough to do the same in Vancouver. Going back to the 800,000 though....that number does represent a sizeable marketing opportunity which Canada has yet to capitalize on. It may not be entirely soccer related but getting sponsors access to those households (probably 300-400,000 in actuality)is still a potential windfall scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin lechelt Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Well said Pony. You can't push on a rope and you can't make a league happen before the time is ripe. The fact is we have good quality soccer in Canada in our, now, five A-League teams. We have good quality lower division soccer too (PCSL, AMSL, CPSL, etc.). What is missing is inter-play and a method to deliver a true national champion. We need an Open Cup first. The fans will demand the rest in time. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 what canada needs is a stable domestic league first and foremost.at the same time it would be wise for the league to bring in some ageing name talent from overseas to sell some seats,(if gazza played for the caps they would probably sell out every road game in canada.)offers of coaching and or management opps in canada would be appealing to many euro based players at or near the end of the line.quality of life etc.maybe a three or four man import rule would be the right mix.also a game of the week on tv would do wonders.(hire brit announcers it makes it seem more credible.)also be in tandem with a womens league ie doubleheaders.also have a once a year all star game in a nuetral city(to gauge future expansion)canadian league all stars vs mls league all stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact supporter Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 snake , Pony: The only way that a domestic league could ever be set up in Canada and succeed is if it was made of representative sides coast to coast: I have identified 20 areas that could use this format and have applied team names: Here it goes: Newfoundland Rovers Nova Scotia Clippers Royal PEI New Brunswick Bays Dynamo Quebec(Eastern Quebec) Montreal Impact(Western Quebec) Ottawa Wizards(Eastern Ontario) Toronto Lynx(Central Ontario) Hamilton(Southern Ontario) London or WOFC(Western Ontario) Thunder Bay or Ontario Northlands(Northern Ontario) Winnipeg Sundogs(Manitoba) Regina Thistle or Regina Rovers(Southern Saskatchewan) Saskatoon Athletic(Northern Saskatchewan) Edmonton Aviators (Northern Alberta) Calgary Mustangs(Southern Alberta) Okanagon Abbotsford(Fraser Valley) Vancouver Whitecaps(Vancouver Metro) Victoria Vistas FC(Vancouver Island Select Team All-Stars) The provincial leagues would be used for club soccer. Feeder system. This is a better use of resources as smaller towns and clubs (Cape Breton, Flin Flon) would find the travel costs eating up thier budget. With these 20 teams I was thinking that a Canadian League(or Voyageurs Cup) could be set up along the lines of the Currie Cup(South African Rugby) where there would be a 10 team Division 1 and a 10 team Division 2. As for the Canada Open Cup, open the current provincial cups to professional Canadian teams and have a Canadian Cup Winners Cup. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact supporter Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 snake , Pony: The only way that a domestic league could ever be set up in Canada and succeed is if it was made of representative sides coast to coast: I have identified 20 areas that could use this format and have applied team names: Here it goes: Newfoundland Rovers Nova Scotia Clippers Royal PEI New Brunswick Bays Dynamo Quebec(Eastern Quebec) Montreal Impact(Western Quebec) Ottawa Wizards(Eastern Ontario) Toronto Lynx(Central Ontario) Hamilton(Southern Ontario) London or WOFC(Western Ontario) Thunder Bay or Ontario Northlands(Northern Ontario) Winnipeg Sundogs(Manitoba) Regina Thistle or Regina Rovers(Southern Saskatchewan) Saskatoon Athletic(Northern Saskatchewan) Edmonton Aviators (Northern Alberta) Calgary Mustangs(Southern Alberta) Okanagon Abbotsford(Fraser Valley) Vancouver Whitecaps(Vancouver Metro) Victoria Vistas FC(Vancouver Island Select Team All-Stars) The provincial leagues would be used for club soccer. Feeder system. This is a better use of resources as smaller towns and clubs (Cape Breton, Flin Flon) would find the travel costs eating up thier budget. With these 20 teams I was thinking that a Canadian League(or Voyageurs Cup) could be set up along the lines of the Currie Cup(South African Rugby) where there would be a 10 team Division 1 and a 10 team Division 2. As for the Canada Open Cup, open the current provincial cups to professional Canadian teams and have a Canadian Cup Winners Cup. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pony Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Impact Supporter: Your model sounds great! However I still think that The Open Cup format, is the best way to get it going. The FA cup, afterall, is how the leagues in england got their start. I'm all for starting a league from the start, if it's going to get the support (Financial and otherwise). I just don't feel that the climate is there at the moment to support a nationwide endevour. That is unless someone has facts about sponsors and the like that the rest of us have not been made aware of. Assurances that place like PEI, Regina, TBay etc can draw similair numbers to the Impact would be nice too. A ground up approach may yeild a stronger (hopefully two or three tier) product in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 talk is cheap. why not put together a group decided proposal and send it to the CSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Pony Here in lies the problem for forming a nationwide league from the start: You have a relatively small population but a massive landmass. Attempts in other parts of the world to produce a soccer league on this 'big' of a scale have encountered great difficulty along the way. Take for example the MLS. I believe it was just a few years back that they were considering contraction, because of financial problems. They have rebounded, to some degree, but not without backing of the worlds largest economy and support from the highest levels of government (both political and economic) Canada cannot use this model, because we simply don't have the resources nor the higher level support to jump start an endevour on that scale from scratch. Even our beloved hockey teams(excluding Van and TO) have had financial problems in the last decade. Danny Boy I agree that the CPSL and PCSL haven't aquired the kind of support required to form a full professional league, However, there hasn't been a big push to interconnect these leagues, nor to form similair leagues out east and on the praries. My idea would be to first start semi-pro leagues in those areas, then produce some sort of affiliation between them. Once it has been proven that teams from the regions are viable, then plans can made to form a more national league, along with any other stable teams wanting to join (by that I mean the current A-League franchises). Bottom line, a ground up approach best suits an endevour such as this in Canada. I do not see what "interconnecting" leagues accomplishes. To run a club in a professional manner you need REVENUES Revenus mean clients ( clients to see the games, buy merchandize etc). The CPSL or any other similar league do not have clients. the reason they don't have clients: one could probably write an essay on this one but four reasons are: 1)facilities 2)marketable talent or product 3)lack of required investment capital. 4)sizable market I do not see how interconnecting solves anything. Sorry but I don't mean to sound condescending. Its just that this topic has been rehaashed a million times over the many years. I am just frustrated when I have to hear time and time again the idea that you could magically pluck some soccer team in one of a gazillion tiny centres accross canada and poof you have something that will keep players in canada and turn us into next soccer power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 [}]Simple rules of economics. Supply and Demand. When the market demands, supply will follow. There will be a Canadian league when the market demands one. This I believe , there will one day be a canadian league, as I believe QPR will one day be EPL champs , FA cup holders , League cup holders ,and Champions League champs all in the same year !Ooops that's being a fanatic not a fan[)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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