The Atiba Situation

[Canuck Oranje]

I am not as concerned as others about this move. If it rapidly develops Atiba's talent,it serves its purpose for the MNT.

First, a Dutch friend (works for a Dutch multinational) told me a couple of years ago that "if your knowledge of eastern Europe is 5 Years old, it is already obselete". I can only assume that investment in the Russian soccer league mirrors the investment rates in the rest of the economies of eastern Europe. This means the quality level is not static. One only has to look a Chelsea to see what Russian money can do to improve a soccer team. I would have to agree with Grizzly that the Russian league (now) is likely a higher quality than most second tier western European leagues (including my beloved Dutch league).

Second, the Russian option is a good one for players that do not have a European union passport. Russians, like Canadians, Argentinians and Brazilians, would face the same administrative hurdles getting into European union leagues.

Third, I find it hard to believe that any of the biggest clubs in Europe would miss sources of talent that nearby. Remember that Saturn is in Turkey at the moment with a number of Bundesliga teams.

Fourth, if the money is good in Russia and the quality level is improving rapidly, why bother moving to Europe if you are a Russian player? Unless a big 4 league team with a big money offer steps up.. Remember the cultural, language, and alphabetic differences work both ways.

A greater concern of mine (as mentioned by Dandal) is the cultural one. The issue for Atiba would not be as great if he were in the city of Moscow, which is a World city. Being stuck out in the drab countryside could be a little depressing. But he does have a lot of foreigners to hang with.

In the end, my advice to Atiba would be to go for it if you feel you can get playing time (which could still be challenge). After all, he would still play for the Canadian National Team if he was of the calibre to attract a big European club and as a result, would be seen by clubs in national team games. Also, if Saturn is successful making it into European tournaments, Atiba will get his exposure. And he doesn't have to stay there for the Russian winter..

After all that, I suspect Osters and Saturn agreeing on a transfer fee is only the first step. If I was in Saturn's position, I would want the fee contingent on Atiba agreeing to a contract extension (probably 2 more years). Why pay roughly a $1 million US transfer fee if you lose the player in a year? You want some value remaining when Atiba attracts big money from Europe in the best case scenario.

[Cheeta]

I'll agree that the eastern European leagues are finding their feet again and a move to Russia isn't necessarily a bad one.

But it's a question of distance that concearns the MNT and Atiba's potential commitments to Canada. I hope that should the man find himself playing for Saturn he's challenged, learns, and advances his career towards no end. But Moscow is a long, long way from Canada's eastern shores. And add a continent on top of that to get to any NT matchs which'll be hosted in Vancouver during the winter months.

It's hard enough already on the guys from western Europe, I can't imagine a player from Russia making any matchs during the European season. Might as well go play in China like a certain sweeper we all miss...

[Canuck Oranje]

The issue of time is one that will affect all European-based players. Keeping it in perspective Moscow is only two hours different from continental Europe.. When playing in Vancouver the time difference to mainlain Europe is 9 hours.. to Moscow it is 11 hours.. I also did a quick search to compare travel time between Vienna and Moscow to Vancouver. Shortest travel time to Vienna (same as Stockholm) is also 2 hours less than the shortest time to Moscow (approx. 13.5 to 15.5 hours).

Nonetheless, the MNT management need to consider that.

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

I'll agree that the eastern European leagues are finding their feet again and a move to Russia isn't necessarily a bad one.

But it's a question of distance that concearns the MNT and Atiba's potential commitments to Canada. I hope that should the man find himself playing for Saturn he's challenged, learns, and advances his career towards no end. But Moscow is a long, long way from Canada's eastern shores. And add a continent on top of that to get to any NT matchs which'll be hosted in Vancouver during the winter months.

It's hard enough already on the guys from western Europe, I can't imagine a player from Russia making any matchs during the European season. Might as well go play in China like a certain sweeper we all miss...

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

With his salary at Russian prices he will live like a king there.

I thought that Moscow was recently listed as one of the most expensive cities in the world [?]

Sucks when ya leave tho'....I know.

[MikeD]

quote:Originally posted by Grasshopper

And, NO, Artibo is NOT a good nickname for Atiba, for those of you so inclined.

But, as the other two alluded to, great job Grizzly on enlightening the blind (myself included) about the world of Russian soccer.

Blair

What!?! What's wrong with Artibo!?! (or we could just call him Tibo for short)

[marcl_19]

Tiba, maybe, Tibo no. haha

[Dandal]

Or "Atiba-tiba-tiba" as the Öster fans chant.

Atiba is back in Sweden. The major Helsingborg newspaper runs an interview with him today. In short: It went well. He didn't get a written contract offer with him, but if he wants to go to Russia they want him.

A probably somewhat butchered translation of the rest:

" -So it's all set for Russia then?

- No, I don't want to say that. Helsingborg and Öster are still very much in the picture. What's most important for me is that I get to a club where I fell I can take a new step in my development. And that will be somewhere I can feel comfortable with the team.

- So what happens now?

- I don't know really. I know I have to make a decision soon. At the moment I'm talking to my family and my agents trying to make up my mind. Moving to Russia doesn't really seem that exciting."

Helsingborg management comments that things are looking brighter now. "I'm sure the russians can make a very attractive bid. But the kid is only 20. He's got a lot of years ahead of him to get to the big money."

[Grizzly]

Well I think I can guarantee Atibo that moving to Russia would be exciting. Whatever one thinks about Russia you can never say that it is a boring country. It would definitely be a big culture shock for him to move there though, especially being in a small provincial town (although I personally prefer the Russian province to Moscow which all Russians call a different country). On the other hand being in a small town might be easier than being in the chaos of Moscow and Ramenskoye is only 40 km. from Moscow. He would probably have a hard time finding anyone that speaks English and would probably have to learn some Russian (practices would also probably be in Russian). I imagine he could get on pretty well in English in Sweden (maybe Dandal could let us know whether he can speak any Swedish) and I doubt the adjustment to the Swedish lifestyle was nearly as difficult as the adjustment to Russia would be. As far as prices in Russia, there is a huge difference between Moscow prices and those in the rest of the country. Ramenskoye would be very cheap especially on his salary. Although Moscow is often called one of the world's most expensive cities it depends on how this is calculated. There are very few middle class people in Russia and prices are aimed at either the rich (foreigners and the "New Russians") or the poor regular citizens. As Moscow has a large number of the former, prices are very high for the things that these people use (ie. restaurants, western quality hotels, shows, discos, western style supermarkets, western style downtown appartments). These are usually the things that are calculated in such comparisons as they are usually made for western companies who send their employees to foreign countries. Prices for goods in a Russian market or store and average housing in the suburbs are much lower.

As far as travel for MNT games I don't think this would be a big worry. Moscow is not that far east and although he would have to deal with another 2 hours time difference his travel time might actually be reduced as Moscow has direct air connections to most major European cities and many North American cities including Toronto. Thus he may often be flying direct instead of making connections that are probably often necessary in Sweden. Saturn's current coach was Russia's national coach in the last WM (they were excellent in qualifying but played poorly in the WM) so he may be sympathetic to NT duties. He is also a coaching legend in Russia as coach of Spartak for 15 years during which they won 9 titles.

I don't think the Russian league should be considered a feeder league nor would it consider itself as such. Like the French league it is a league competing with the big four. While it is obviously not competing for players such as Figo and Beckham it is competing for players who could be decent steady players in those leagues and offering similar salaries for these players. (If a certain Russian billionaire had decided to invest his money in Russia instead of England maybe they would be competing for such players. Sound similar to a certain Canadian whose daughter is thinking of becoming a politician). Many other leagues like Sweden are pretty much resigned to their second class status as feeder leagues although a few teams with Champion's League ambitions may be exceptions. However, even these teams can't disguise to potential players the fact of their inferior opposition. Thus while there may be a few Swedish teams that are not far from the level of Saturn, the level of the league as a whole is definitely far below that of Russia. The Russian league is also improving at a faster rate than most other leagues as their economy improves and it shouldn't be ignored that Russia has the highest population in Europe. To put this all in perspective, were Atiba to sign with Saturn and receive significant playing time, only three current MNT players would be playing at a higher level (I don't count Hirshfeld because he is not playing). Of these, only Stalteri is playing on a team superior to Saturn as Hannover and Everton would be of a similar level to Saturn. I would probably rate Benefica and the Portugese League as similar as well (Rapid Vienna and the Austrian League are definitely lower in my opinion, I think many people on this board overrate this team based on its historical name most of which was due to the years it played in the Bundesliga during the Third Reich when it was one of Europe's top teams). Thus I think from a soccer perspective this would be a good move as long as he thinks he will get playing time. The Russian league is definitely watched by the big four, if less players switch from this league to the big four than from the Swedish for example this is due mainly to the quality of play in Russia and the level of player salary. If he is successful in Russia and wants to play in the big four he will definitely be able to do so. (Uedinese's interest in him came from the U20 WM not his play in Sweden.) The main question is whether he wants to live in Russia or not. Quite a few Canadian hockey players including former NHLers are playing in the Russian league and seem to be getting on well. The Russian league has recently passed the German and Swiss leagues as the second best paying hockey league in the world. As an aside, I think this post raises a number of issues that might suggest that forming European regional leagues such as a Scandanavian League. I know the European Super League is pretty controversial but this may be a good compromise. It is pretty strange that cities like Moenchengladbach, Hannover and Rostock have teams that are superior to teams in cities like Vienna and Stockholm.

[Guest Ed]

No offense, but the "Bundesliga" is only 40 years old and was never associated with the Third Reich. Otherwise, I agree with your comments on Rapid Vienna.

[Gian-Luca]

Except that I haven't seen anybody on this board rate Rapid Vienna at the same level as the clubs that Stalteri, De Guzman or Radzinski are playing for, nor even Aguiar at Benfica. I'm not sure anybody is really over-rating Rapid Vienna, what I've seen instead a lot of is people quite rightly saying that Rapid Vienna is better than any club that Hastings has warmed the bench for (and there have been so many) and as such we should be looking to use Jazic instead of Hastings at left back.

[Grizzly]

Technically you are correct Ed and the Bundesliga was founded in 1963 as a professional league. However, the German Football Association(DFB) was founded in 1900 and a German Championship has existed since 1903. Of course this championship was interupted in the last year of the war, during post war Germany and divided by the establishment of East Germany. By the time of the Third Reich there was a national league that could be considered professional, that consisted of many of the same teams currently in the Bundesliga and was overseen by the same organization that now oversees the Bundesliga. It subsequently incorporated the teams from the annexed German-speaking territories. I think the Bundesliga could be more properly seen as a refounding of the league that was present in Germany up to the end of the war. As far as not being associated with the Third Reich, the name change may have been intended to signify this but certainly many of its members were associated with the Third Reich as occured in almost all West German governing institutions (the GDR was much more thorough in cleansing its institutions of Nazi supporters and imprisoning war criminals). Incidentally, Rapid Vienna (and Bayern Munich as well) was considered a "Jewish Club" as it maintained Jewish players and directors long after most other clubs had performed their purges (eventually they were also forced to remove such players/directors). This made title matches in the early years of the regime very heated affairs as Rapid often played for the title against the favorite Nazi teams, Schalke and Nurnburg.

[Grizzly]

Don't mean to get picky Gianluca but actually Rapid is currently only 1 point better than GAK whose bench was warmed by Hastings although he was actually a starter for them for a short time. However, several years as a starting player for Rapid is certainly better than several weeks as a starter for GAK and certainly Hastings recent MNT play has not shown that he should be a member of the squad unless we are beset by a very large number of injuries. Nor am I suggesting that Jazic shouldn't be called to and possibly start for the MNT, I thought he had a decent if unspectacular game against Ireland in which he certainly played much better than Hastings. It has been my impression, however, that certain posters were pretty impressed with Rapid as being a big name team which it is for historical reasons. At present form I think they would be a good 2nd Bundesliga team. If the Austrian, Swiss and German leagues combined I think they would improve their club vastly and return to being the top European club that their name and history deserve. Whether Jazic would remain with them at that level or not is speculation but as far as I know none of the Bundesliga teams have expressed interest in him.

[Gian-Luca]

Here's a new article on Atiba by Neil Davidson, which also mentions that there is interest in Atiba (as well as Pozniak) with the MLS. Hopefully Poz finds something soon.

Highly touted Canadian soccer player works out for Russian, Italian teams

By NEIL DAVIDSON

TORONTO (CP) - Highly touted Canadian midfielder Atiba Hutchinson is back from Turkey after trials with a couple of Russian soccer teams.

The 20-year-old from Toronto worked out for Spartak Moscow and Saturn Moscow, both of which were training in Turkey. Prior to that the young Canadian was on trial with Italian Serie A club Udinese. Hutchinson has one more year left on his contract with Osters in Sweden, but the club is weighing offers while the transfer window in Europe is open in January.

The six-foot 153-pounder has been a well-regarded prospect for some time, but he upped his value at the World Youth Championship in the United Arab Emirates in November, when he was named to the all-tournament team.

Agent Barry MacLean says there is interest in Hutchinson in such Major League soccer teams as the Los Angeles Galaxy, DC United and Dallas Burn. Major Swedish clubs are also watching.

Udinese is not out of the picture but is unlikely to sign Hutchinson, the agent added.

"I think by the end of this week, one way or another, it's going to be decided," MacLean said Monday from Kitchener, Ont.

Hutchinson has already won four caps for the Canadian senior team and Canadian officials hope he will be available for the Olympic qualifying tournament in Mexico early next month.

There is also MLS interest in Canadian Olympic team captain Chris Pozniak, who has turned down a new contract offer from Sweden's Orebro to test the market.

Pozniak has a Polish passport but English interest in the 23-year-old Toronto defender-midfielder may be delayed by the fact that Poland does not become a European Union member until May.

"Ultimately he would like to go to an English club," said MacLean.

-

GREEK SIGNING: Alen Marcina, a 24-year-old forward from Surrey, B.C., has signed a three-year deal with Greek club FC PAOK.

Marcina played for the Ottawa Wizards of the CPSL in 2003 with nine goals and eight assists in 10 games. Prior to that, he was an NCAA Div. 2 all-American at Florida's Barry University.

The 24-year-old is Barry University's all-time leading scorer with 62 goals.

"He's very quick, very talented," agent Eric Manasse of Logosport said Monday from Westport, Conn. "He plays on the left side, scores a lot of goals."

Marcina went over on a trial and earned the contract after scoring in a friendly.

PAOK will loan the Canadian to a lower division side for six months, until an import spot opens up.

-

MISL HONOURS: Toronto goalkeeper Peter Pappas has been named defender of the week in the Major Indoor Soccer League after stopping all 16 shots in the Philadelphia Kixx's 5-0 win over the San Diego Sockers. The shutout was the first in the MISL since April 2, 1999, when Pappas and the Kixx blanked the Florida ThunderCats 12-0. The clean sheet is the third of Pappas' career, second only to Jamie Swanner who had eight. The 31-year-old Pappas is one of five men in league history with multiple career shutouts.

[Grizzly]

Confirmation from an article posted on a Saturn fan forum that Artibo was indeed Atibo (I am not sure why they add an r and call him by his first name). It states that he made his debut with the team and is a young Canadian national team midfielder who last played for Oesters in Sweden. It seems like he did play in the midfield during the game so this is probably a good sign. The Saturn website is excellent in both English and Russian, far superior in both languages to the Spartak website.

 ñîñòàâå "Ñàòóðíà" ïîìèìî Àëåøàíäåðà äåáþòèðîâàë ïîëóçàùèòíèê ìîëîäåæíîé ñáîðíîé Êàíàäû Àðòèáî, èãðàâøèé ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ â øâåäñêîì "Ýñòåðå".

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Confirmation from an article posted on a Saturn fan forum that Artibo was indeed Atibo (I am not sure why they add an r and call him by his first name).

And change the "a" to "o". It's "Atiba", not "Atibo".

[Andrew W]

Apparently Frank Yallop is spreading the gospel of Atiba as well. Seems the Dallas Burn of MLS are interested if the quote on one of their fansites is legit.

http://www.3rddegree.net/

BURN CONFIRM INTEREST IN ATIBA HUTCHINSON

--Burn GM Greg Elliott confirmed that the Hutchinson is on the team's radar and is among the candidates they are considering. "We hear very good things about him, I talked to Frank Yallop this morning and got a very good report. Atiba is on our list, along with some other players. We compare him very favorably to Ricardo Clarke" said Elliott "Hutchincon is 20 so questions remain if he would be the right fit as he would require a Major Player Allocation. Is he too young? Would he even want to come here? We hear Udinese has interest as well as other MLS teams so if we decide to pursue it there will be competition."

[Grizzly]

This would be a great disappointment to me if he chose MLS over Russia although I do think MLS has a fairly good level of play. It may be a step up from the Swedish league but it would probably be a pretty small step. The league is probably just a bit more balanced, there are a couple of Swedish teams that could dominate the MLS and several that would be quite poor in this league. I think San Jose would be in danger of relegation in the Russian league. Certainly the training conditions, level of coaching and general soccer atmosphere would be far superior in Russia. Also the recent post on the other board on MLS salaries doesn't lead me to believe that they would offer anything similar in salary to the Russian league. As far as lifestyle goes I can understand him having trepidations about living in Russia and could understand if he chose to live and play in say Holland or Portugal instead. However, I have lived in both the USA and Russia and would without hesitation choose to live in Russia over the US (just not on a Russian salary but definitely on a Russian soccer salary). To mention just one reason for this, everyone thinks that Russia is very dangerous but I would sure rather be walking alone at 2 a.m. in downtown Moscow than I would in downtown Dallas. And one can understand seeing some bad stuff in Russia in that it is a poor country but seeing a lot of the same stuff in the richest country in the world is pretty hard to fathom. The only possible advantage I can see is that he might be more available for MNT games but I would rather see him develop into a top notch player who may miss the odd game than risk his development slowing due to lack of playing at the highest level.

[Gian-Luca]

I'll be surprised he if goes to MLS.

[Gordon]

Dallas already had a shot at him. They were too stupid to figure out what they had 18 months ago.

[Guest Ed]

MLS cannot afford to pay what he is worth. The highest paid player in the league is Adu, who is only guantteed $500,000. Clint Mathis just signed with Hannover 96 for 500,000 Euros, sizably more than Adu's salary and that was stated as an 'average' salary for Hannover. European clubs just pay a lot more money than anything here, especially when you throw in the perks.

[Dandal]

But you have to consider that Hutchinson last year definitely has made less than US$50K and very few players in the swedish league (if any) make more than $200K. Still Atiba insists that staying in Sweden is a serious alternative. I agree though, he won't go to MLS, but I don't think money plays a major part in the decision.

[SABuffalo786]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

This would be a great disappointment to me if he chose MLS over Russia although I do think MLS has a fairly good level of play. It may be a step up from the Swedish league but it would probably be a pretty small step. The league is probably just a bit more balanced, there are a couple of Swedish teams that could dominate the MLS and several that would be quite poor in this league. I think San Jose would be in danger of relegation in the Russian league. Certainly the training conditions, level of coaching and general soccer atmosphere would be far superior in Russia. Also the recent post on the other board on MLS salaries doesn't lead me to believe that they would offer anything similar in salary to the Russian league. As far as lifestyle goes I can understand him having trepidations about living in Russia and could understand if he chose to live and play in say Holland or Portugal instead. However, I have lived in both the USA and Russia and would without hesitation choose to live in Russia over the US (just not on a Russian salary but definitely on a Russian soccer salary). To mention just one reason for this, everyone thinks that Russia is very dangerous but I would sure rather be walking alone at 2 a.m. in downtown Moscow than I would in downtown Dallas. And one can understand seeing some bad stuff in Russia in that it is a poor country but seeing a lot of the same stuff in the richest country in the world is pretty hard to fathom. The only possible advantage I can see is that he might be more available for MNT games but I would rather see him develop into a top notch player who may miss the odd game than risk his development slowing due to lack of playing at the highest level.

MLS only a "small step up" from Sweden? Now, MLS is nowhere near being the best in the world, but you got to give it some credit. I mean, half the squad that beat Portugal was from MLS. I'm going to agree with Crazy Yank's thread that MLS is somewhere between mid to lower English first division and upper 2nd division. And save for the annual CL participants, I'd say there isn't much between MLS and the Russian first division, either.

And Grizzly. Have you ever been to Dallas? And Moscow? I haven't been to either, so I can't definitley say which is more dangerous, but I'd think you'd be worse off in Moscow.

I think Yallop is very smart in trying to get a lot of the young Canadian prospects to stay here in North America, especially MLS. He knows the league is no joke, and can produce quality internationals.

[SABuffalo786]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

This would be a great disappointment to me if he chose MLS over Russia although I do think MLS has a fairly good level of play. It may be a step up from the Swedish league but it would probably be a pretty small step. The league is probably just a bit more balanced, there are a couple of Swedish teams that could dominate the MLS and several that would be quite poor in this league. I think San Jose would be in danger of relegation in the Russian league. Certainly the training conditions, level of coaching and general soccer atmosphere would be far superior in Russia. Also the recent post on the other board on MLS salaries doesn't lead me to believe that they would offer anything similar in salary to the Russian league. As far as lifestyle goes I can understand him having trepidations about living in Russia and could understand if he chose to live and play in say Holland or Portugal instead. However, I have lived in both the USA and Russia and would without hesitation choose to live in Russia over the US (just not on a Russian salary but definitely on a Russian soccer salary). To mention just one reason for this, everyone thinks that Russia is very dangerous but I would sure rather be walking alone at 2 a.m. in downtown Moscow than I would in downtown Dallas. And one can understand seeing some bad stuff in Russia in that it is a poor country but seeing a lot of the same stuff in the richest country in the world is pretty hard to fathom. The only possible advantage I can see is that he might be more available for MNT games but I would rather see him develop into a top notch player who may miss the odd game than risk his development slowing due to lack of playing at the highest level.

MLS only a "small step up" from Sweden? Now, MLS is nowhere near being the best in the world, but you got to give it some credit. I mean, half the squad that beat Portugal was from MLS. I'm going to agree with Crazy Yank's thread that MLS is somewhere between mid to lower English first division and upper 2nd division. And save for the annual CL participants, I'd say there isn't much between MLS and the Russian first division, either.

And Grizzly. Have you ever been to Dallas? And Moscow? I haven't been to either, so I can't definitley say which is more dangerous, but I'd think you'd be worse off in Moscow.

I think Yallop is very smart in trying to get a lot of the young Canadian prospects to stay here in North America, especially MLS. He knows the league is no joke, and can produce quality internationals.

[Canuck Oranje]

I am not going to get into the debate about how good a league is compared to another except to say that the team that pays the best tends to have the best players.

I will concede that the MLS is likely better than most give it credit for. Having said that; however, I will say that eastern Europe is not as bad as most North Americans perceive it to be. Having travelled in eastern Europe, I will say that I was surprised by how wrong my perceptions were.

A good example of how reality can be distorted is simply comparing winter temperatures. Myself, I was conditioned to believe that Moscow was one frozen city. After a little digging, I was amazed to find out that Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and some other Canadian cities had lower mean January temperatures than Moscow. I think that surprises a lot of people.

As for where Atiba should play? Well, if the choice is between a $50,000 annual salary and a $200,000 salary, I doubt there is a red blooded capitalist that would choose the $50,000 job. It may not be all about the money; but is that other thing worth $150,000?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I want to respond to Grizzly's comment about Russian not being a feeder league, my comment earlier. I did not by this mean that it was merely that. What I was saying is that apart from the big four in Europe all leagues in Europe are potential feeder leagues for Italy, Spain, England and Germany. These are the prime leagues to play in, not only for salary (as it can be low in these top flights, esp for youth players brought up or for lesser teams) but for exposure and potential for getting noticed and finding a better contract.

My concern, I repeat, is that in Russia a player can get "lost", that is, that I don't think the major leagues are paying a lot of attention to Russia league players. Perhaps this should change. But hey, if the guy who won best player at the youth cup, Maher the UAE striker, is likely to be ignored just for being from there, this will happen to certain players just because of where they are from and where they are playing. And I'd like to see Atiba eventually find his way to a top level league.

Aside from this, in Saturn's favour, the fact they signed Onopko is a good sign. He is an excellent player, in the dusk of his career, but certainly if they wanted to use Atiba on the back line he would be a fine model for Atiba. Intelligent, good play out of the back, tactical sense, mature team mentality. A bit like Marquéz in fact. I am sure Atiba would improve in Russia beside players like him.