Massive Attack Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Players had say in Osieck departure http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2003/09/04/176133.html By GEORGE GROSS -- Toronto Sun It is not unique, and therefore not surprising, that Canadian soccer is once again demonstrating a case of the tail wagging the dog. Small wonder that our national soccer team is ranked internationally somewhere between Upper Slobovia and Lower Oblivion. This time we're faced with the resignation of Holger Osieck, head coach of Canada's national team and its technical director, a man who has a better knowledge of the game than most Canadian soccer officials combined. It was not by accident that Osieck was selected assistant to Franz (Der Kaiser) Beckenbauer, the only man who received global acclaim as both player and coach for leading Germany to soccer's ultimate prize. When Osieck arrived in Canada in 1998, he was immediately faced with an almost insurmountable task -- most of the national team players were playing overseas. He wondered why all those players were playing abroad for a buck when Canada, one of the world's wealthiest countries, should have been able to entice these kickers into staying at home and being paid accordingly. No such luck. The federal support for sport in this country is pitiful. They will talk about millions given to sport, but when dissecting the money one deduces that it may pay, perhaps, for one cup of Tim Horton's coffee per athlete. In fact, many athletes and sports officials will tell you that after the departure of the string of sports ministers from Iona Campagnolo to Otto Jelinek to Jean Charest, the support for Canadian athletes has been minimal. But is this why Holger Osieck decided to step down? Hardly. By talking to him yesterday it became obvious that the German-born coach is a gentleman who was not prepared to wash dirty laundry in public. "It is for personal reasons that I have resigned," he told me. "I have my principles and I have to live by them. There's no reason to say more. I love Canada. So does my wife, Elizabeth. I'm not running away, but certain things forced me to make my decision. "It's not the case of having lined up another job elsewhere. I don't have another job to go to. But, I hope that if the word filters out that I'm available, I may hear an offer from somewhere." SNOOPING Part of a journalist's job is to dig for facts. By snooping around, I discovered that some players were reluctant to put up with Osieck's disciplinary demands. They also refused to adhere to his demands for serious fitness training. A group of them met with Andy Sharpe, president of the Canadian Soccer Association, and threatened not to play for the national team as long as Osieck was coaching. Sharpe, obviously, capitulated to the players instead of telling them where to go. After all, the way some of them were performing, they might as well not have played at all. I'm convinced that Holger Osieck, who coached around the world and lectured on soccer on behalf of the Federation of International Football Association in various countries, will be offered a good job elsewhere. He will, of course, regret that he couldn't lead the Canadian national team out of the wilderness and into the next World Cup. He brought the Gold Cup to Canada in 2000 and was now only a couple of players short of doing better. Unfortunately, Canadian soccer officials bowed to the players instead of raising funds to keep some in Canada and letting the malcontents go elsewhere. But, I guess, these officials prefer the tail wagging of a dog to its bark. Onward and upward Upper Slobovia. GROSSLY ABBREVIATED: Colorado Avalanche's high-scoring forward Milan Hejduk has won the coveted Golden Hockey Stick of the Czech Republic as that country's most valuable player. He beat out Ottawa Senators' Martin Havlat and New Jersey Devils' Patrick Elias for the honours. Washington Capitals sharpshooter Jaromir Jagr finished sixth in the voting ... The Toronto Lynx soccer team, one of this city's best kept secrets, finished the 2003 season with two victories. They beat Calgary 2-1 and followed it up with a 4-1 triumph over the Virginia Beach Mariners. The Lynx's overall record is 11-13-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 This puts the onus on the players to perform. Enough, apparently, revoted to force the change. Now they have to put their money where their mouth is. The new coach effect, and renewed player commitment, should provide a short term positive effect. But this will be short lived, unless the CSA puts some real commitment behind the 2006 Qualifying bid. In theory, our player pool just got deeper. Job 1 for the CSA is to get a new coach. I also think that the CSA will be motivated to provide the new coach with some appropriate suport and resources. Although the WWC Cup and the U-20 tournament will dominate for the remainder of 2003, 2004 & 2005 can see more resources directed to the senior men's team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Well, the onus is always on the players to perform, but I'm not really sure at this point that things happened in quite the way Gross makes it sound - his article suggests he is very much pro-Holger, rather than sounding terribly objective. If it was a team-wide movement to Sharpe, I think we would have heard about this first through Neil Davidson (who at least indicates his source material, unlike Gross in this article) & I don't think Stalteri would be quoted as being in shock over Osieck's departure. Stalteri is good friends with much of the core of the team, including many that were at the Gold Cup (ie. McKenna, Hastings, Bent, Hirshfeld - anyone who played with Paul in the Olympic program, they are all pretty tight, with Stalteri & Bent often coming to Lynx games to chat & socialize with Robbie Aristodemo). I'd be surprised if those players were part of the "group" Gross mentions (which could be as few as 3 people if the choice of words is taken literally). Its unlikely the younger players would be part of such a movement (ie. Hutchinson, Pozniak, Canizalez, Hume, Klukowski) as they are all starting out with the senior team program and are probably still in the happy/grateful to be called stage (and would likely be less sick of Holger as well, not having played under him for 4 years like the others). Other players like Nash might considered too fringe (if that's the right word) to be considered likely candidates, while many others (De Guzman, Nsaliwa, Radzinski, Brennan etc.) weren't even at the Gold Cup. Dasovic & Fenwick were on their last legs with the team & Holger has shown faith in them by continually picking them where possible. So that doesn't leave too many players left. And if this group meeting happened, I would suspect the only recent opportunity would have been the Gold Cup (after that the players went their separate ways back to their club teams) - if it was that large & all-encompassing you have to figure Stalteri & Davidson would have known about it, which also suggests smaller numbers - but even small numbers likely would have been enough for Sharpe, I think. He perhaps talked to Holger about the possibility of softening up considerably in this "weekend review", and the rest is history. That's only a theory on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 This Gross guy obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, and choose soccer as a way to jump on the bandwagon to bleat about something he thinks will help his weird agenda. How can "raising funds" keep Canadian players in Canada, where are they all going to play? In the A-League so despised by Holger? "Here's a bone, Grossy-boy, run with it". The Sun outfit deals with yellow journalism, but at least they have a few guys like Jones in Edmonton that at least try to understand what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Well, the onus is always on the players to perform, but I'm not really sure at this point that things happened in quite the way Gross makes it sound - his article suggests he is very much pro-Holger, rather than sounding terribly objective. If it was a team-wide movement to Sharpe, I think we would have heard about this first through Neil Davidson (who at least indicates his source material, unlike Gross in this article) & I don't think Stalteri would be quoted as being in shock over Osieck's departure. Stalteri is good friends with much of the core of the team, including many that were at the Gold Cup (ie. McKenna, Hastings, Bent, Hirshfeld - anyone who played with Paul in the Olympic program, they are all pretty tight, with Stalteri & Bent often coming to Lynx games to chat & socialize with Robbie Aristodemo). I'd be surprised if those players were part of the "group" Gross mentions (which could be as few as 3 people if the choice of words is taken literally). Its unlikely the younger players would be part of such a movement (ie. Hutchinson, Pozniak, Canizalez, Hume, Klukowski) as they are all starting out with the senior team program and are probably still in the happy/grateful to be called stage (and would likely be less sick of Holger as well, not having played under him for 4 years like the others). Other players like Nash might considered too fringe (if that's the right word) to be considered likely candidates, while many others (De Guzman, Nsaliwa, Radzinski, Brennan etc.) weren't even at the Gold Cup. Dasovic & Fenwick were on their last legs with the team & Holger has shown faith in them by continually picking them where possible. So that doesn't leave too many players left. And if this group meeting happened, I would suspect the only recent opportunity would have been the Gold Cup (after that the players went their separate ways back to their club teams) - if it was that large & all-encompassing you have to figure Stalteri & Davidson would have known about it, which also suggests smaller numbers - but even small numbers likely would have been enough for Sharpe, I think. He perhaps talked to Holger about the possibility of softening up considerably in this "weekend review", and the rest is history. That's only a theory on my part. I think it is safe to say that player discontent played a role in Holger's departure. There is too much smoke - including the call to Bircham in advance of the announcement. Now the who's and why's can only be speculative. I would caution reading too much into Stalteri's expression of shock. You could be right, but we did not - likely - get the whole gist of the interview. I noticed right off the bat the absence of any form of "support" for Holger as the coach, and that he was also was quoted as saying, effectively, that Holger had probably stayed to long. Now it could be that he was just thinking out loud and rationalizing things. Perhaps he did say that Holger's departure was a great loss to Canadian soccer and it just was not reported. Who knows? But the assumption that Stalteri, and everyone associated with him via the olympic team, would not have been involved is dangerous (Just as any assumption either way on this matter is dangerous due to the lack of concrete information). Certainly Stalteri may have like Holger, even appreciated his style. But he is also a competitor and probably able to see that the problems Holger had with certain players was a detriment to the team. Maybe the "revolt" was not so much a revolt, but the players going to the CSA to get Holger to lighten up on the reigns and mend fences with some of the players in the doghouse. Maybe Stalteri was "shocked" that this simple request led to Holger choosing to resign. Or maybe it is as you suggest. Even a couple of the Gold Cup squad, along with whatever other communications they (CSA) may have had from either directly or indirectly with the like of Bircham, Jazic, Aguiar and Pesch (all speculative) means the "numbers" could be higher than the numbers actualy in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew W Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Whew, I haven't had such a good laugh in all my life. This Gross guy [)] saying that we should just let the players walk away is simply hilarious. Obviously he isn't up to date on our player pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Maybe the player revolt was led by DeVos (I'm only speculating here, I have no actual facts). We all know about his post Gold Cup comment where he basically said things couldn't keep going the way they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Imagine (just imagine) the player revolt is true Do you think they might have "sacrified" the game against Cuba just in order that Osieck would quit ? Just a question to have your opinion, not an affirmation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Bite your tongue, BB . They were just tired and undermotivated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Andrew W Whew, I haven't had such a good laugh in all my life. This Gross guy [)] saying that we should just let the players walk away is simply hilarious. Obviously he isn't up to date on our player pool. I don't think anyone who's talked with Andy Sharpe for more than 5 minutes wouldn't dought he's very much old school as it were, when it comes to football. As a player, he's not the sort of fellow I'd want to approach with a take it or leave it scenario. That being said, he's also a most practical fellow. Maybe a voice or two from the player pool was a last straw I don't know. I don't think Mr. Sharpe is counting on the return of any exiles with this move. Guess we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Well, somebody from the CSA is counting on the return of Bircham, at minimum, considering he was called & invited back before Osieck's departure was made official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Can you believe that? Honestly I hope it's not an entirely true account, but somehow, sadly, I dought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Can you believe that? Honestly I hope it's not an entirely true account, but somehow, sadly, I dought it. I assume you mean the fact that Bircham was informed before Holger. Not a lot of class shown there, either by the CSA or Bircham; it's not clear yet. Also I'm a little stunned by the rumour that the players revolt was over fitness training among other things. What exactly was that about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Seriously. A coach comes in and tries to enforce top notch fittness and these guys bitch about it? Is it a case that they just don't give a **** about Canada and are not prepared to go through tough routines on international duty? If Holger was that strict about fittness than I applaud him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I'm in some doubt as to whether the "fitness" rumour started by George Gross is accurate - this is after all the same man who discovered that the players didn't like Holger's iron-fisted discipline about 3 years after everybody & their aunt knew this was the case. I guess it would help if Gross at least gave us an idea as to his sources, outside of stating that he "snooped around". And I know that he never travelled with the team, & its not like the we had any recent home games he could attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
behrouz Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 it is no way you can improve the player fitnes by a week,as we all know he could have his players just for a short time and any coach knows that in short period of the time ,you get chance to bring the team together and improve the team tactic not a fitnes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I am guessing the element of truth in this article has to do with the level of fitness of some players when called. I recall Menezes getting called and then not playing because of fitness. I suspect there was some sort of an issue around that in the Germany game because he played some players ragged and didn't play some others. It was quite clear from viewing game that substitutions were necessary and this was a friendly.. I don't know who the offending players were but something had to be happening there. In any case, fitness may well have been an irritant but probably more in the general fitness level of some players rather than attempts to improve fitness. It may also be the reason he tended to favour some European based players but that is speculation. I seem to recall as well that Holger was reluctant to call A-League players during their off season because of fitness reasons. I suspect we will hear more over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I seem to be getting mixed messages. Isn't this a forum where fans are free to express opinions and conjuctures and not a forum where all postings need to be based on irrefutable facts. To express a view about fitness do I need to have "travelled" with the team? as one poster seems to imply that he has therefore he can refute everybody else's opinion? Just because someone may by buddy-buddy with Osieck, everybody else has to shut-up and abide by his "truth". No sir! I can draw my own conclusions and if those bother someone, that is simply tough. Learn that it is not necessary to prove everybody else wrong. So here is my view about fitness. Fitness is not only important, but crucial. A problems is that fitness is a long process, a coach, even Holger, cannot make someone fit with an infrequent training camp and less frequent games. So it is reasonable to expect players under these circumstances when called, to show up in good to excellent fitness. It is not a perfect world so some players make think of themselves as being fit, when they are not to the level expected by the coach. Perhaps then the coach should be in closer contact and have more up-to-date information about the fitness of who he calls up. It is a waste and counterproductive to call people only to not use them. This creates an ill feeling of player towards coach that ends up in serious dissagreement. We've seen the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 quote:Originally posted by The Ref I seem to be getting mixed messages. Isn't this a forum where fans are free to express opinions and conjuctures and not a forum where all postings need to be based on irrefutable facts. To express a view about fitness do I need to have "travelled" with the team? as one poster seems to imply that he has therefore he can refute everybody else's opinion? Just because someone may by buddy-buddy with Osieck, everybody else has to shut-up and abide by his "truth". No sir! I can draw my own conclusions and if those bother someone, that is simply tough. Learn that it is not necessary to prove everybody else wrong. [?] Your own conclusions about Osieck doesn't bother me, but your conclusions that I am in someway shouting everybody else down & hell-bent on proving everybody else wrong while insisting I am right bother me a little, because I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are basing this assumption on. Yes, this is a discussion forum where people can express opinions & conjecture, and that is all I've been doing - and without any animosity or rancour to anyone on this board, I might add. I have put forward theories based upon what I know (and stated that they were "only theories" & expressed doubts on what was written in an article, and explained the basis for my doubts. I'd like to know how I can be insisting that my version of "the truth" is correct & everybody else's is wrong when I don't even know what the truth is, and have expressly said so (hence the use of the term "theory" on an earlier post in this thread). In addition to these posts where I am insisting that I am right & everybody else is wrong, I'd also like to see these instances where I tell other people to shut up. Perhaps you could show me these examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Well that's just it isn't it? Expectations of the manager have to based upon available resources. Don't think Holger or his successor had or well have the resources necessary to keep fully on top of the players in the national pool. Not just their fitness or stamina, but where they've been playing, where they've been tried at, who've they've been partnered with, blah, blah, blah. Never even mind the personality considerations. I'd be willing to bet there isn't a successful national side where the coaching and managment staff don't have a full dossier on every one of the players in their pool based on their own data and intelligence. Not the word of some guy you grew up with in Munich who's in the game and seems to know what he's talking about. Bruce Arena has most of his side in sight and a 'phone call away. Bet his spys are everywhere. Certainly makes it a lot easier to choose the right side for the contest. Must be nice to know exactly what to expect from players X, Y, and Z. To not discover upon arrival at camp that those two videos you got to see where the best two matchs of Jordon's life and not his typical fare. So if some players are upset that the gaffer didn't know their talents well enough before hand and waisted everyones time and patience needlessly by calling them up they might want to look a little further up the CSA food chain to target some of the blame at. Hope Holgers' replacement fares better once the honeymoons over. P.S. Sorry, my rambling responce is to The Ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Well, how often have we heard of athletes getting into a coach's doghouse because they show up to training camp out of shape? I seem to remember various cases in various sports. I think Derrick Coleman in basketball is a good example. I think we are dealing with professionals here in most cases. I would hope the coach doesn't have to stay in contact with these players too closely. The accountability does seems to be being placed solely on the coach; but, if the issue is maintaining a specified fitness level, the player also needs to have some accountability. If you are not in shape, don't accept the call-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 "Cant we get along...can't we all just get along." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 quote:Originally posted by beachesl "Cant we get along...can't we all just get along." No, you're wrong, and I am right - we can't get along. So shut up!!! (Sorry about the joke, I couldn't resist. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Oh!! This just in! A strong westerly has just blown the most incredible fly into my condo. Seems that not only can this little winged insect communicate with scorpios born in the Year of the Cock telepathicaly, but said bug has a soft spot for Moosehead and a photographic memmory!! You'll be amazed at what you can learn for a half beercap of stale lager. Litterbox. "Wheh, THAT hits the spot. Man, I just flew in from Vancouver and boy are my wings tired!" Cheeta. "Yeah, yeah. Get on with it already. You telepath, I'll type." Litterbox. "Right then, ahem, here we go. You SURE the cat's locked upstairs?" Cheeta. "He won't be for long, speck!" **** "Holger, some of the lads have been complaining about being left on the bench." "They're lucky they got that far. If I'd know better before hand they'd been left with their clubs." "That's the point they're making! So why then did you call them up you witless Hun?" "How the hell am I suppose to know who to pick? They're scattered all over Europe and beyond. I've got no scouts but my personal contacts. My research budget from the CSA is a pentium I with a black and white monitor, a dial up modum, and 200 internet minutes a month. You sold our satellite dish at the last CSA yard sale and my travel budget specifies I can only fly to destinations where the carrier offers something below business class! Do you know how hard it is to fly Kennel Class when you're allergic to dogs!!" "Yes, well, ahem, since we're on the subject. At the last board meeting we decided not to cover the cost of those supplies you bought." "What! Why?" "Well, we've all got to live within our budgets and it was felt those sort of luxurys can be done without, thankyou." "A new eraser for the chalkboard and a yellow highlighter I bought at a dollor store!" "Getting back to Xausa's complaining,," "XAUSA! He's happy enough sitting on Livingstone's bench but he's not happy sitting on Canada's?! This is ridiculas. Hey? Half a snitzel. Andy, you trying to get rid of me?" "What!!! Noooo!!! How could you even,,? No, no, no, no. Why, the very idea. Absolutely not. No, heavans, no. YES!!! DOOP!! Ah, fu'k!" "I knew it! Ever since you turned off the power in my office and rented out my coat closet to that bio-lab to store those cylinders labeled SARS VIRUS! Damn!!" "It's like this Holger, if you don't resign, you're fired." "Hah! Screw you, Limey! I'm not going to resign and you can't fire me! I QUIT!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Gosh, Cheeta, you shoulda worked for the CIA in the 70's, the cold war woulda been won sooner! We won, didn't we....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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