Under 20 schedule, Olympic squad

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I heard this months back from Thunder (maybe May?), thought I'd finally give a preview of things since it may change in the end anyways, and if not is interesting enough. BTW already then the tournament in Houston was in the plans.

In late Sept into October they are doing a training camp in Van and there could be games vs the Caps.

Late October there is a tournament in Panama, with the locals and Colombia involved.

Into mid November they keep the plan to do a camp in Turkey, likely the same spot as decided upon before, hopefully games vs. the local nats and perhaps other sides preparing in the same spot (European?)

The team goes to UAE the week before the WYC starts, late November.

[Gian-Luca]

The mid-Nov. camp would presumably not include Olympic team members, as if all goes well against the US Virgin Islands in early September (rapidly coming up, where are you Twamley?), we will be playing El Salvador at that time.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

The mid-Nov. camp would presumably not include Olympic team members, as if all goes well against the US Virgin Islands in early September (rapidly coming up, where are you Twamley?), we will be playing El Salvador at that time.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

Do you think they would sacrifice their last camp to prepare for the World Cup for that elimination round, pulling out a few players just to bolster the under 23 team? I think not, or at least I sure hope not. What point is there to qualify for a major event and then break up the backbone of the team a few weeks beforehand to qualify for another?

I hope that Atiba and Hume, for me the most obvious players to help the under 23s, are left to concentrate on UAE, we'll need them.

Sure wondering who our keeper are going to be, in both Olympic Q's and UAE lead-up.

[Gian-Luca]

Its a tricky question. I agree with what you are saying in principle, but if the rumours of the likes of De Guzman, Nsaliwa & Klukowski being deliberately left off the Olympic team (so that they can be used exclusively for the senior team) are true & they also do as you suggest (ie leave out Atiba & Hume (and perhaps Belotte)) from the Olympic team against El Salvador, we are going to have a fairly 2nd-string U23 team attempting to qualify that November against an El Salvadoran team that will be made up of 10 to 15 players with plenty of senior national team experience (including the Gold Cup). I'm not saying we will lose, but we will be severely hampering our chances.

Considering that we have potentially the strongest U23 team in the region, I'd hate to see us throw away our chances un-necessarily. I think Canada making the Olympics would garner more attention than making the U20 World Cup.

What it does point to is that Twamley should be looking at bringing in players like Ryan Thomson & Ali Ngon, who aren't yet used by the senior team but too old for the U20 team. This is what we need more of. Lets hope we see that, very soon.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

.

Considering that we have potentially the strongest U23 team in the region, I'd hate to see us throw away our chances un-necessarily. I think Canada making the Olympics would garner more attention than making the U20 World Cup.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

I am not so sure that the clubs will be happy to release Players like Kluka and DeGuzman if they have to play for the senior team as well. For the same reason, I think Hume will be asked to focus only on WYC.

None the less, while hoping for all the best for our Olympic squad I have to admit that I do find it very difficult to think of us as favourites to qualify for the Olympics. There are only two spots up for grabs and when I look at it closely I am not so sure that we have the quality to advance or contend. Mexico will always be tough and I doubt any of us have any thorough knowledge of what Mexico has to offer. Given their past accomplishments in the region and the fact that they have a high calibre pro league we can't really dismiss them or even seriously say that we are a better team then them given what we know. I look forward to Olympic qualifying but caution against any excessive optimism. An optimist may point to that 2 game split that we had with the US in December but beyond that I can't find any other objective reason for optimism. Aside from Klukowski and DeGuzman, I haven't seen any TRULY significant professional progression. Its possible that we may have overrated that WYC 2001 squad. lets not forget that we played the qualifiers at home and the current U20 squad achieved the same success while playing away.

I made some comparaisons of what the US will present. Given that we know little about CRC and Mexico relative to the US I will proceed the rest of the comparaison using US since its easier to find text on these guys ( ie,: its in English and I can't speak spanish). Here are 5 points to consider when evaluating our prospect for Athens:

1) Since the teams are almost entirely composed of players who played at the last WYC, are we forgetting that US and CRC advanced to the second round while canada went 0-3 with and 0-9 goals for and against and finished next to last in Argentina? Plus two of their players ( Donovan and Beasley) really got noticed by the soccer world in Argentina alongside the likes of Saviola and Cissé. What has really changed since then to make us favoutites over the US?

2) There were three players ( Hume, Belotte,Hutchison) in the last Canadian team at the WYC that were underaged whereas only Convey for the USA fits in that group. This tell us that either our three were too good to pass up or we didn't have the depth ( relative to the US) to fill out the whole roster with appropriate aged players. The real answer is probably a bit of both. Either way, except for Bellotte, its unlikely that the same players will be called for both WYC and Olympic qualifying.

3) If every eligible player is called for both the US and Canada and no one is injured and held back because club commitments and so forth then the US has more quality. Simple as that. Save for one, whom I couldn't locate, every player in their Olympics pool is at least on an MLS roster. We have only four players that we can say fall into a comparable category. I am assuming here that 1st div Eng, Belgium*, Sweden prem, Norway prem, Ger 2nd are at the same level more or less. Granted you could make a good case that Belgium ( Klukowski) is a little strong than this group. But we also have a players like Harmes in this category whose on a last place club in the Norwegian premier. And what about a guy like Donovan, who also falls in this group yet he was a full time starter on their senior side who reached the qrter finals at the WC.

4) As far as players in the top 5 leagues, the US can match Deguzman with with Convey, and Casey. Although I am not sure is Casey is till with Bor Dortmouth. Then what about Beasley and Donovan who are in teh MLS but have played for the senior team at the WC. If you add them to this group then they have an edge of four or five to one in this group.

5) There are no players on the US olympic pool playing in levels like the A-league, CPSL, or who have just dropped out sight altogether. So for a guy like Ngon who we think is a shoe-in for our squad, the US has no one on their squad playing at that low level. Then there the guys that have fallen off the face of the earth: Borselino, Occean, Savaria, Meuleman, Oussa, O'Connor, Zarzycki. the only player in the US olympic pool whom I can't find anything on is Alex Yi.

Here is the Olympic aged squads for both sides. These are essentially the same as the WYC teams but I've included the players who were underaged at the last WYC.

Canada</u>

Chris Pozniak

Gaspare Borselino

Adam Braz

Maycoll Canizales

Julian DeGuzman

Terry Dunfield

Rob Friend

Mike Klukowski

Tam Nsaliwa

Olivier Occean

Miles OcConnor

Victor Oppon

Bernard Oussa

Peter Meuleman

Ali Ngon

Rocco Placentino

Mathieu Savaria

Justin Thompson

Chris Williams

W. Zarzycki

Currently with U20

Wyn Belotte

Atiba Hutchison

Iain Hume

US</u>

Nelson Akwari

Devon Barclay

DaMarcus Beasley

Kyle Beckerman

Edson Bundle

Jose Burciaga

Brian Carroll

DJ Countess

Brad Davis

Landon Donovan

Alecko Eskandarian

Kelly Gray

Kyle Martino

Phillip Salyer

David Stokes

Doug Warren

Chris Wingert

Alex Yi

Currently U 20

Bobby Convey

Here is a comparative grouping I made up showing the highest pro-level attained for players of both the US and Canada.

Group 1

Top division in Top 5 leagues ( Eng, Fra,Ger,Ita,Spa)

DeGuzman-Can

Casey-US

Convey-US

Advantage US in this group of player.

Group 2

Top Division in secondary Euro country ( ie>: 1st div Eng, Belgium*, Sweden prem, MLS, Norway prem, Ger 2nd, Aut, Sui... etc)

Klukowski-Can ( Belgian 1st arguably highest calibre league of this group)

Pozniak-Can

Harmes-Can ( last place club)

Hutchison-Can

Nsaliwa-Can

Barclay-US

Beasley-US (Played in WC for senior side)

Beckerman-US

Bundle-US

Burciaga-US

Akwari-US

Countess-US

Carroll-US

Davis-US

Donovan-US ( Started for senior side at WC - should be rated higher)

Eskandarian-US

Countess-US

Gray-US

Martino-US

Stokes-US

Warren-US

Significant advantage to the US is this category

Group 3

Lower Euro division, Euro reserve sides, Aleague, including 1st div in euro weaker leagues, Eng 2nd div

Braz-Can

Ngon-Can

Dunfield-Can

Hume-Can

Friend-Can

Thompson-Can

Williams-Can

Oppong-Can

Canizales-Can

Placentino-Can

Group 4

All other- CPSL, College, or unknown,

Borselino-Can

Occean-Can

Savaria-Can

Meuleman-Can

Oussa-Can

O'Connor-Can

Zarzycki-Can

Alex Yi-US

Conclusion: The US has far more players ( ie.: essentially the whole team) in the Group 1 & 2 level of competitveness. We truly only have 6 these type player. I generously included Harmse ( an U20 player) in this group. So realistically its 5 players that we have that play at a comparable level to The US Olympic team.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Although I generally agree that perhaps Gian-Luca is a tad overzealous with his view that we are potentially the strongest U-23 in the region, I think that some of your analysis is a bit overzealous as well. First, for the American's Casey is no where near a top 5 League player as he does not feature for his German Team. He is at least one level down, and probably two. Otherwise bump MC2 up to this level as they play comaparable roles for Bund 1 teams.

Second, you generally overate the MLS in my opinion. The MLS is more on par with Low English Div 1, High English Div 2 than a straight Div 1 comparable. And Many of the players you mention do not see significant playing time or make much of an impact if they do get the time in any event. Some of the guys, like Donovan, Beasely, Martino, Countess et. (a few) al. are significant. Others are not. And could easily be lumped down with the A-League guys. In fact, some of the guys starting in the A-League are getting better experience and PT that the MLS lessor lights. Some of the guys on your MLS list would be bench warmers in the lessor European leagues too.

I agree that the US has more depth, and probably better quality overall. But the gap is not that big. And most of the "Group 3" Canucks would be playing in the MLS if they had the proper birth certificate. Some, like Hume, would be significant (and subject to much Hype). Recall that a lot of the US U-20 team were also in the MLS. Finally, if you want to bump Donovan and Beasley on the basis of National Team experience why not extend the same to Pozniak, Nsaliwa - who owns Mr. Beasley, and Hutchinson?

I generally agree with your Free Kick. But think that things are not as cut and dried in the league rankings for the players. Defnitely, however, 10 MLS teams is a big advantage over 4 A-League teams. And our American friends have a raft of fine players and rank ahead of us at this level IMO.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

[Gian-Luca]

Let me also add that unless Convey actually regularly starts for Tottenham every week, he shouldn't be rated at the same level as De Guzman (who does start at the same level of play every week) at this present time.

Conor Casey is the same player who failed to make the same Hannover squad (not to mention starting 11) that De Guzman did, and is now with a Bundesliga 2 squad. At best he would be put at the same level as Tam. Which leaves De Guzman all alone in your first category & that is in fact a key to why I would argue that we have potentially the strongest squad (though I would also say the US would be alongside us as well).

I also don't agree with putting Chris Williams at the same level as Iain Hume, or many of those MLS players at the same level as Tam.

I agree the US has more depth, but in a small Olympic qualifying tournament that might not matter much. Are their best starting 11 better than our best potential starting 11? If we call all of our best players, IMO no. But if we don't call our best players, then I would agree we would no longer be amongst the top favourites to qualify for Athens. It depends on how seriously we wish to take this tournament. If its not that important to us, I question why we even have a full-time Olympic coach (as before January, we didn't).

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Canuck Oranje]

I would echo Gian-Luca and Gordon's comments. There is a significant difference between starting and not starting ... Also I am not sure about the difference between starting in say B-2 and being on the bench in B-1. I suppose it depends on the player and the teams involved. I do have to say though that De Guzman is by far the most successful of the group.. US and Canada.

[Canuck Oranje]

Actually, this is something that has intrigued me for a while. That is the comparable ranking of leagues.. My view is that the English 1st Division and the German B-2 tend to be over looked as top leagues. It comes evident when you see Bayern Munich held to a draw and Coventry City and Glasgow Rangers defeated by Nsaliwa's Jahn Regensburg in preseason.. These were full sides too.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I would echo Gian-Luca and Gordon's comments. There is a significant difference between starting and not starting ... Also I am not sure about the difference between starting in say B-2 and being on the bench in B-1. I suppose it depends on the player and the teams involved. I do have to say though that De Guzman is by far the most successful of the group.. US and Canada.

I think it is fair to say that some of the MLS guys are better than the level of the League, however. I think that Landon Donovan is the most influential player on both sides. His performances with the National Team can not be ovelooked. So while Julian plays at the higest club level on the bunch, I hesitate to identify him as the difference.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

[Canuck Oranje]

Actually your comments add further weight to my second comment. Still when you define success as being success professionally, De Guzman has to rank at the top. But I think many would say that if Donovan chose to, he could likely play and start in B-1. If I recall, it was his choice to return to the USA. And I don't know the answer to that.

This adds one other factor however. We are now comparing players playing different positions when we compare Donovan and DeGuzman. Don't know the solution but the forward would always tend to have the profile.

No matter how objective we try to be, it is subjective in the end.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I think it is fair to say that some of the MLS guys are better than the level of the League, however. I think that Landon Donovan is the most influential player on both sides. His performances with the National Team can not be ovelooked. So while Julian plays at the higest club level on the bunch, I hesitate to identify him as the difference.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

[Free kick]

Several points to respond to:

1) quote: "First, for the American's Casey is no where near a top 5 League player as he does not feature for his German Team. He is at least one level down, and probably two. Otherwise bump MC2 up to this level as they play comaparable roles for Bund 1 teams"

Response: Ok lets remove Casey from the top category. But what about Beasley and Donovan whom I've put in the second group. They started (Donovan did anyways) for their World Cup team in the ¼ finals. Surely that must tell you that at least a lower prem side or comparable team could find a place for them. No honnest person could bump MC2 to this level. We all love MC2 but, he plays on a reserve side.

2)Quote from Gordon: "you generally overate the MLS in my opinion. The MLS is more on par with Low English Div 1, High English Div 2 than a straight Div 1 comparable."

Response: I agree with you here. But that doesn't change or affect my outcomes or conclusion in the slightest bit. Make the adjustments and revisit the groups. You'll see that nothing changed except that maybe Hume now gets bumped up to the same level.

3) quote: "Donovan, Beasely, Martino, Countess et. (a few) al. are significant. Others are not. And could easily be lumped down with the A-League guys"

Response: Perhaps, but Ngon is the only Canadian in the A-league. category. Plus without getting excessively detailed, there is sufficient eveidence based on player movement that the A-league is at a level comparable to the lower Scandinavian leagues. Also, are you sure that your not assuming that a players is a lesser light based on whether we heard of him or not? is Eskandarian a lesser light? he was the first overall pick?

4) Gordon; Many of group three would be playing in MLS if for proper birth certificate. perhaps but most of the A-league is comprised of american players also and ther are none on their National teams. also, if you hypothetically disbanned the MLS tomrw and set all of their players free to seek Euro contract. Where would these US U23 players end up?

5) GL: "Let me also add that unless Convey actually regularly starts for Tottenham every week, he shouldn't be rated at the same level as De Guzman".

response: My group rating was based on highest level attained. I thought this was the most fair way to do this given the age of the players and that we don't who will stay with their clubs. Anyone could get released from tehir clubs to more. Also, its a little harsh to say that Convey needs to start every week to be at teh same level as DeGuzman when, up until the first two games of this new season, De Guzman seldom started.

6) Canuck Orange: There is a significant difference between starting and not starting.

response: True but do we have statistical evidence that our guys have more playing time than the US guys within the same group levels?

[Canuck Oranje]

My last comment in my last post here says it all.. No matter how objective we try to be, it is subjective in the end.

As for the Convey/Casey/De Guzman comparison, De Guzman played in 18 B-1 Games, Casey in 4 (from kicker.de)in their career so far not counting this year. That is without trying to determine which were starts. Casey did play 19 B-2 games with Hannover. But then Nsaliwa played 12 games at B-2. Casey is now with Karlsruher (B-2) by the way.

I think Convey is a different case because he hasn't played yet. Dunfield (when with Man City) and Hirschfeld come to mind.

However, the basic premise that the USA should be favoured ahead of Canada in Olympic qualifying is something I would probably agree with.

[Gordon]

A few replies to clarify.

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Several points to respond to:

1) quote: "First, for the American's Casey is no where near a top 5 League player as he does not feature for his German Team. He is at least one level down, and probably two. Otherwise bump MC2 up to this level as they play comaparable roles for Bund 1 teams"

Response: Ok lets remove Casey from the top category. But what about Beasley and Donovan whom I've put in the second group. They started (Donovan did anyways) for their World Cup team in the ¼ finals. Surely that must tell you that at least a lower prem side or comparable team could find a place for them. No honnest person could bump MC2 to this level. We all love MC2 but, he plays on a reserve side.

My point was that Casey and MC2 play comparable roles on their B1 teams. Reserve players. You have to apply the same criteria. Note that I say drop Casey 1 or 2 levels or else bump up MC2. I do agree that MC2 is not at a Top 5 league level. But if he does, then MC2 moves up to that level by default. Because their situations are comparable. I would certainly agree that Donovan and arguable Beasley could be "moved up" but only if the same subjective criteria were applied to all of the players involved.

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

2)Quote from Gordon: "you generally overate the MLS in my opinion. The MLS is more on par with Low English Div 1, High English Div 2 than a straight Div 1 comparable."

Response: I agree with you here. But that doesn't change or affect my outcomes or conclusion in the slightest bit. Make the adjustments and revisit the groups. You'll see that nothing changed except that maybe Hume now gets bumped up to the same level.

I would argue that it would move a number of the MLS players down a group. If Cunningham can be one of the better players in the MLS (and starts ahead of Buddle if I recall correctly) and not make Saarbruken what does that say? Or Rick Titus not making Plymouth while they were in Div 3 and being Defender of the year for Colorado in the MLS? Both would argue, correctly, that their nationality played a role in their failure. Just a canadian passport plays a role in who makes the MLS. You seem willing to give Convey credit for the level he has achieved, yet unwilling to give Dunfield credit for a man of the match appearnace in the Premiership.

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

3) quote: "Donovan, Beasely, Martino, Countess et. (a few) al. are significant. Others are not. And could easily be lumped down with the A-League guys"

Response: Perhaps, but Ngon is the only Canadian in the A-league. category. Plus without getting excessively detailed, there is sufficient eveidence based on player movement that the A-league is at a level comparable to the lower Scandinavian leagues. Also, are you sure that your not assuming that a players is a lesser light based on whether we heard of him or not? is Eskandarian a lesser light? he was the first overall pick?

And at least one American day comentator (and really how many were there?) said that Friend would have been #1 overall if he had been an american and not signed already in Norway. Is he a lessor light? According to your groupiong he is. Eskandarian is only one season removed from NCAA, as is Friend. I am sure that Esky is a fine player, but he is, reasonable comparable to Friend. There is also sufficient evidence that that the gap between the A-League and the MLS is not that significant, particularly when the MLS teams sit their top 3 or 4 players, and few of those you identify are top 3-4 players for thier MLS teams. As for the MLS, I try to watch at least one of the games each weekend and often see two. Where does the Weder Bremen reserves fit in relative to a role player in the MLS? Its difficult to say, but I would suggest that all of Braz, Ngon, Hume, Friend, Dunfield and Canizalez would be in the MLS had they the right Birth Certificate. Dunfield has actually take the pitch in the Premier League and in terms of highest level achieved is above Convey's achievements to date. He sought playing time and moved to the Third. And until two shoulder injuries was drawing rave reviews, performing well against higher level teams in Cup play and identified by his manager as "higher than the 3rd Division". So, even if you do not drop any of the American's down, the addition of 6 Canucks to the Group 2 category very much levels that category.

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

4) Gordon; Many of group three would be playing in MLS if for proper birth certificate. perhaps but most of the A-league is comprised of american players also and ther are none on their National teams. also, if you hypothetically disbanned the MLS tomrw and set all of their players free to seek Euro contract. Where would these US U23 players end up?

Well, Donovan and Beasley would probably end up as either group 1 or 2 players. Martino, Countess, Buddle and some of the rest would stay at group 2 and some would end up as group 3 players - probably the A-League. The lack of A-League players on their National team does not mean anything. If they were Canadian, or any nationality other than American for that matter, and just as skilled, they would be in the A-League or lower level Europe. The MLS has programs designed to put young Americans in the MLS (and Kudos to them for this). You don't honestly think that Eddie Johnson, for example, was in the MLS last year because he was better than Brian Ching do you? More potential, yes, of course. The MLS is great for the development of american players. I wish we had a comparable situation. But we don't, and the A-League and the lower leagues of Europe have to do. How many of those MLS players on the American roster would be on a MLS roster if they had to earn their position a a foreign player? Basically, if they are not one of the top 6 or 7 players on their team, they wouldn't make it as a foreign national. And they would be in the A-League, or the Norwegian First, English 2nd/3rd or German 3rd.

In any event, while I do agree that the American U-23 team has greater depth and a small quality advantage overall, it is not, in my opinion, as pronounced as you are arguing. It is a subjective thing, of course. For example, I would argue that while I rate Donovan ahead of DeGuzman just now, if DeGuzman continues playing in the Bund 1 while Donovan continues in the MLS, it will not be too long before Julian first catchs and then surpass the Golden Boy. Just my opinion of course.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

[Free kick]

There are some good arguments here from everyone. Kudos to those who reminded me that Dunfield did play at the highest group level. You are right there. I suppose at this point its worth reiterating the notion that when two teams face each other in soccer anything can happen. We definitely can win and we are all hoping for a win. What questioned ( correctly or incorrectly) was the sence that we were overwhelming favourites.

Alot of people have poked holes in the subjective aspect of the groupings of leagues that player play in. Yet I approached this with the thougth of being generous ( giving the benefit of the doubt ) towards the leagues that Canadians play in. A US fan could easily step in and say that no MLS player would leave the MLS to play in Norway, Belgium or Sweden. So that works both ways.

And yes, subjectivity plays a great deal in this kind of analysis and its true that in a one game situation depth means nothing. If you have the best player on the pitch, then he can win it for you by himself. But if you were asked as an impartial outsider, to step in and write a preview/analysis for Olympic qualifying, your going to focus as little as possible on the subjective aspect and thats how favourites are determined. Furthermore, its what will give the most credibility to your piece.

Another thing to look fwd to will be the WYC and how this squad fares in relation to the 2001. That may shape our thought of this olympic team. We don't really have a point of comparaison for the WYC teams of past and present. The victoria tourny was televised live in canada in prime time on basic cable and there weren't many Voyageurs on this website prior that time to assess other WYC teams. We can't say the same for 97 Malaysia squad ( who reached the second round) and this year U20 squad whom we had to scramble to watch play in qualifying.

[Canuck Oranje]

Another difficulty in assessing Olympic sides will be the availability of players. I suspect the US players in Europe will face the same challenges as the Canadians there. So players playing regularly at their clubs like Casey, DeGuzman, Nsaliwa, Klukowski and maybe Convey if he is playing and I am sure others may be left off the Olympic squads to have them focus on WCQ.

In the end, it will be the team that shows up that will play.. There the MLS and the US college scholarship system gives the US its biggest advantage. That is a depth of locally based players.

[Gian-Luca]

I've been away from a computer for much of the past two days & not really able to join in this discussion as much as I would have wanted. But let me add a couple of quick points:

I don't see any mention of Nik Ledgerwood for Canada, who has attended the U23 camps & is considered a member of the Olympic team pool. He's now with the 1860 Reserves & should be ranked close to the MC2 level. I think his signing probably will improve his chances of starting for the Olympic team, even though he's just 18 at the moment.

Also, a player like Belotte is not playing at any level currently, but most US fans that have seen him play (and he's played for Canada more often in the US than he has in Canada) rate him very highly - the same way that many US fans I spoke to in Boston also rate Nsaliwa at the same level as their own Beasely. In any event, Belotte is another example that we really can't simply rate everything on on the basis of where they play. I'm not sure I would rank De Guzman ahead of Donovan, but as I mentioned before, by the original level ranking system proposed (which wasn't mine), Julian would be alone by himself. Nobody else starts at that high of a level at the U23 age group (though for me the more telling statistic is that he lead his team in possession against no less of an opponent than Bayern Munich).

It is also worth mentioning in head to head friendly competition, that our U23 team split a pair of matches with the US team, each winning 2-0. Arguably Canada was missing more first time starters than the US were - basically almost all. If the US is greatly favoured over Canada, we have yet to see any empirical evidence to support this thus far.

As I say however, the balance can be tipped quite heavily by the removal of the core players of the Canadian team. In a small qualifying tournament (the final stages of the tourney would require us to play just 5 matches to qualify) held over a short period of time, it shouldn't matter that much (certainly not as much as it should for World Cup qualifying)that the US has greater depth & better players from players 21 to 50 in their player pool than we do, if its players 1 to 20 (where we are more or less equal IMO) that do the competing in the final rounds (which is what it should be). But take away the top 7 or 8 players from the top 20 & Canada will be at a disadvantage.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Gian-Luca]

BTW, I've heard that the US U20 coach is no longer sure that he'll be able to get Convey for the U20 tournament in November.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Canuck Oranje]

I think the key in using the level of play a team plays as a means to determine the success of a player is whether that player gets significant playing time. Not necessarily starting but at least playing. That shows the coaches are prepared to use that player at that level. Like the NBA, there are not many development minutes available at top level clubs. That is what reserve and amateur sides are for.

Again there are always exceptions to such a rating. Donovan comes to mind.

I would also say that the level of play will have a greater significance at different positions. Defenders, for example, develop based on reacting to the opposition and would benefit greatly defending against world class forwards. On the other hand, Goalkeepers are less likely to have their development slowed as much by a lower level of play.

Still, generally, I think it is safe to say that the wealthy clubs will acquire the best players possible. Some for potential and others for immediate use. The Potential may not be ready for the level of play but you can be sure that those playing are..

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I don't see any mention of Nik Ledgerwood for Canada, who has attended the U23 camps & is considered a member of the Olympic team pool. He's now with the 1860 Reserves & should be ranked close to the MC2 level. I think his signing probably will improve his chances of starting for the Olympic team, even though he's just 18 at the moment.

I used only the players listed on the offical U23 (Olympic) pool for each respective nation plus those that were part of the last U20 rosters for my comparaisons. Given that Ledgerwood is only 18 and that most, if not all, of the US will be in the appropriate 20-22 age, that doesn't necessarily give Canada an edge. 18 to 22 is only a four year difference but at that age level in soccer thats a huge gap in soccer development. For proof, just look at how the Calgary storm struggled in their first year using only 18 year olds versus a league of older players. Unless Ledgerwood is a real stud, using him IMO would further prove that we are over matched at that age category. Bellote however is a different story and I will concure with you there.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

It is also worth mentioning in head to head friendly competition, that our U23 team split a pair of matches with the US team, each winning 2-0. Arguably Canada was missing more first time starters than the US were - basically almost all. If the US is greatly favoured over Canada, we have yet to see any empirical evidence to support this thus far.

I have acknowledge in my original post the fact that we split a two game series with the US last December in Fort Lauderdale.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

As I say however, the balance can be tipped quite heavily by the removal of the core players of the Canadian team. In a small qualifying tournament (the final stages of the tourney would require us to play just 5 matches to qualify) held over a short period of time, it shouldn't matter that much (certainly not as much as it should for World Cup qualifying)that the US has greater depth & better players from players 21 to 50 in their player pool than we do, if its players 1 to 20 (where we are more or less equal IMO) that do the competing in the final rounds (which is what it should be). But take away the top 7 or 8 players from the top 20 & Canada will be at a disadvantage.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Gian-Luca]

I wouldn't simply go on the basis of the 2001 U20 squad. Especially when you see players like Matondo, who is getting more playing time on the same A-league team as Chris Williams. True that Ledgerwood's age doesn't necessarily give Canada an "edge" (though I am not really interested in whether Canada has the edge over the US but whether we are as strong as they are), but a Canadian 18 year old signing with a Bundesliga side where others who are older than him are unable to is not a sign that we are over-matched IMO. Rather, its a sign that the kid must be a quite a talent - and having seen him play live last year his signing in the Bundesliga came as no surprise to me at all.

Let's look at this another way, when we talk about potential strength. Here's a possible starting line up for Canada:

Belotte Hume

Canizalez Klukowski De Guzman Hutchinson Nsaliwa

Pozniak Braz Harmse

Fernandes

Subs: Friend, Ngon, Placentino

Dunfield, Matondo,Thomson

Oppong, Arango, Ledgerwood

Rayner

I'd have a hard time, with this starting line-up & bench strength (where several Euro-based players would be sitting), agreeing that we would be clear underdogs against the US. My main concern for us would be in goal if Fernandes & Rayner don't see significant club time between now & the qualifers (as our U20 2001 keepers haven't gone on to do much as of yet). But that's about it. Otherwise I think we would be able to match them on the field & on the bench, and certianly that's what we've seen so far. It remains to be seen whether we will put together such a squad, however, when it really matters.

As for Mexico, I don't think they'd necessarily have a stronger squad from what we've seen so far. But since they are hosting the tourney, they must also be considered amongst the favourites.

And if we can still believe in tomorrow, yesterday will disappear soon enough - IQ, The Wake (1985)

[Gian-Luca]

The first Olympic qualifier is just two weeks away (Sept.6th or 7th) in the US Virgin Islands. We haven't heard anything about the squad called for the tourney, which leads me to wonder if the late announcing of the roster is because we are trying to acquire as many Euro-based players as possible.

If its any consolation, I haven't heard any word of the USVI releasing their roster as yet.