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CSA releases proposal for new stadium


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G-L,

No talk of MLS from the podium. It is listed as a possible tennant in the paperwork although, strangely, it also lists the links. I think even the Hartrell's were overheard to say that it should be one or the other.

KH,

I understand what you're saying though I'm not up on the federal funding to BC. Quebec gets the most doesn't it?

As for Commonwealth, I agree that's why it was built but since then (apart from the World University Games and the IAAF Track and Field Championshps), if one wanted to call it a white elephant (which I am not doing), one could do so.

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Just saw a feature on the stadium on The Score where Andy Sharpe basically mentioned that an MLS tenant for the stadium would be nice but is not essential. He did mention the stadium helping out the Lynx.

I have to say the design of the stadium looks great, one can only hope we actually see it get built.

Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977)

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G-L,

I was talking to Andy for that piece. He said that if an MLS franchise comes along that's great, but they weren't really close to anything. He didn't reveal much. Didn't sound like a guy that was actively pursuing a franchise, but I could have misread his comments

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I've never played on Field Turf, but after last night I'm not a huge fan of it as a soccer facility. The balls runs where it would hold up more on grass, players seem hesitant to slide in and challenge. It doesn't look really good with football lines and ads all over the place.

I don't see how this addresses our field problems? We already have Montreal and Ottawa as similar sized facilities if this cuts it as a 'national soccer stadium'. Add in Edmonton, plus Winnipeg, Vancouver, Claude Robilliard etc for smaller matches and I don't see the real need for this stadium. Sure it will help the Lynx and it is key for an MLS expansion team, but I think truthfully FieldTurf kills the MLS expansion idea dead. I'm sure they're hesitant to leave the US and without a soccer specific stadium (and this is quite clearly not a soccer specific stadium) I think they're doomed.

Finally has anyone ever heard an international manager say something nice about Field Turf? The Dutch won't play on it, the Brazilian women hate it, who knows how many others feel the same way. Maybe they're wrong, maybe it's great, but if they don't want to come then what good does this do us. It apparently will be up to FIFA standarads so now we can host WCQ in Toronto, that's the only positive I can see.

Which is fine for people in Toronto, but frankly it doesn't matter much to me. I can't see this drawing international teams and I can't see it raising the profile of the game in Toronto itself. To the Old Country supporters having a national stadium with plastic and rubber pelets is just another sign they're living in soccer purgatory.

cheers,

matthew

The car is on fire and there is no driver at the wheel and the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides. A dark wind blows. The government is corrupt and we are all so many drunks with the radio on and the curtains drawn. We’re trapped in the belly of this horrible machine and the machine is bleeding to death.

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I don't think you should base your argument against FieldTurf on the Brazilian women bashing it.

Brazilian soccer player + loss = whining.

Mimglow, Ottawa

_________________________

You are the witness of change

And to counteract

We gotta take the power back

Rage Against The Machine

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I would be concerned about the ability to draw major international teams to play friendlies (though not big European clubs such as the ones allegedly playing on Field Turf in the US this summer). However, it is worth noting that there has been a ton of media coverage in Toronto already for this proposal (as a soccer stadium - its not being promoted as a new football stadium), and if that is anything to go by it is unquestionable that the profile of Canadian soccer will be raised in Toronto.

Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977)

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On the note of US cities having grass fields, they genally have an underground heating system to keep the field soft.

For Matthew,

Visiting teams expect stadiums to have a certain capacity these days before they would even consider hosting a match. The days where Swangard and CCR could be considered adequate stadia for intl. matches are over. As for the Dutch, they may have to swallow their pride if Ajax decides to get rid of their grass surface.

As for Commonwealth Stadium, Clarke was too small for the crowds the Esks were getting at that time. Plus, it's the only real stadium in Alberta that's equiped to handle major non-sporting events.

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To clarify further, the Canadian Soccer Association is a not for profit corporation that receives some funding from government. This stadium is a pipe dream. Never will happen at $62.5 million in Ontario and Federal government funding. No one at the CSA appears to have been paying attention to government financing policy of late. But then I expect this is an opening salvo. Seems foolish to build an artificial turf stadium in Toronto for that kind of money.. Doesn't do anything...

Another stadium that the national teams we would like to play won't play in. And I don't blame them from what i have seen of the turf. it's better than the old stuff but not natural grass.

This is a joke. The economic impact analysis is a joke too..

quote:Originally posted by Mimglow

Just to clarify, the CSA IS a government organization. How in the world would you expect it to raise 60 mil when its annual operating budget is 10 mil?

I'd also like to bring to light for some of you who don't work in government just how government and the Treasury work. What happens is you go to the Treasury and you ask for more than what you need. Of course the government will say no to the full amount, but that's the way the game is played. The CSA will then turn around and say okay, how much will you give? Let's say for arguments sake that the Treasury Board of Canada and Ontario combined give 30 million. Then the CSA turns around and goes to the Argos and corporate sponsors to make up the difference, highlighting the fact that the governments are behind them.

That's just how it's played. I've know because I've been a part of many projects where we needed money from the treasury board. Don't be so hasty in judging the CSA on this. Patience will be required. Don't expect Mel Lastman with a shovel and hardhat at exhibition place tomorrow morning.

This is a very sound plan, and getting Warner to come up and pledge the U-20 was a stroke of genius. Hats off to the CSA on this occasion. (except for the Fieldturf...I don't agree.)

Mimglow, Ottawa

_________________________

You are the witness of change

And to counteract

We gotta take the power back

Rage Against The Machine

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I don't see that happening any time soon.. That is Ajax doing away with natural grass.

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

On the note of US cities having grass fields, they genally have an underground heating system to keep the field soft.

For Matthew,

Visiting teams expect stadiums to have a certain capacity these days before they would even consider hosting a match. The days where Swangard and CCR could be considered adequate stadia for intl. matches are over. As for the Dutch, they may have to swallow their pride if Ajax decides to get rid of their grass surface.

As for Commonwealth Stadium, Clarke was too small for the crowds the Esks were getting at that time. Plus, it's the only real stadium in Alberta that's equiped to handle major non-sporting events.

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Cynics.

What kind of starving man turns down a sandwhich because he'd rather it were on rye bread?

Elections are coming. There'll be money. Don't know how much. But there'll be money. Federal and provincial. Nothing like this gets built without the lions share being taxpayer's money. Nothing. Someone name one bloody thing.

Plastic dosen't have to be forever. Can be turfed over on an as need basis, like say for a years worth of WCQ. Or even better, a certain FIFA tourny. These things can be fine tuned. If it's found internationals can't be had because of the FieldTurff, the surface well HAVE to be adapted.

Build it.

"Minority of one"

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no, its like building a skate board ramp for a ski jumper, completely ineffectual.

International Rugby has not approved Field Turf for international matches, so no international matches at this stad. Looking forward to watching the local field hockey team at 3:00 a.m. from the new sky boxes. :)

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I'm glad there is buzz about this in Toronto, but I still remain skeptical that the people who put flags on their cars during World Cup and won't cross the street to watch the Lynx are going to be impressed by this. Maybe we don't need to impress them.

Doyle> We have all the capacity we ever need at Commonwealth with it's nice natural grass. If we want a 30k stadium with field turn we have Frank Clair. A little smaller we can go to McGill. On top of that we still have stadia that can host Olympic qualifying, WCQ against smaller nations etc against on REAL grass.

I like Field Turf. It looks a lot better than any of the other fake stuff. But it looked a mess in Ottawa (and there are reasons, but it still looked like crap) and I thought it played poorly. Which is fine for a friendly and probably great for a fall game (certainly better than Varsity was for Mexico), but for our national stadium to the tune of $82M well I'm just not very excited about it.

Maybe I should take Cheetah's approach and figure having 30,000 seats around a field in Toronto is great and we can fight to put grass in once the Argos fold or something, but I'm not too sure.

"What kind of starving man turns down a sandwhich because he'd rather it were on rye bread?"

I think the man is starving so he's going to eat worms. You can eat worms, but you'd certainly hope to get proper food.

Anyway I hope it does get built, I hope someone comes to their senses and puts grass in and if not I hope I continue to live close to Edmonton where most of the big games will likely come.

Oh and just because the Brazilian women whine a lot doesn't mean they're wrong.

cheers,

matthew

The car is on fire and there is no driver at the wheel and the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides. A dark wind blows. The government is corrupt and we are all so many drunks with the radio on and the curtains drawn. We’re trapped in the belly of this horrible machine and the machine is bleeding to death.

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I think its more accurate to state that people won't cross the entire city to go to Lynx games, rather than simply cross the street. It takes me about a 45 minute drive on the toll highway just to get there. Centennial is a lousy venue with a lousy field, but its location (& the fact that nobody knows of its existence in Toronto) is also a huge problem - its basically accesible only by car, or by spending a monstrous amount of time on the TTC (usually a combination of two or more buses/subway). One thing the CSA did get right is the location. I'm not convinced yet about the Field Turf though.

Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977)

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I jumped the gun and replied before I read the rest of the thread. However, I won't erase the post because the point is valid -- Khead, your argument was that the stadium wasn't going to create jobs in other parts of the country therefore it shouldn’t be funded by the rest of the country. No one in Toronto is going to get a job because BC is building a bobsled track. The argument is the same.

RANT ALERT

With all due respect, I detest provincial thinking. The stadium will create jobs for CANADIANS, so why the he!! should we care where they are from. To me, the reason this country can't get its crap together is because we are too busy protecting are tiny little fiefdoms. We have to stop thinking so damn regional, its useless and it holds us back.

RANT OVER

All that said....It needs to be grass and I'll believe it when I see it.

I HATE the fact I had to sign up for this forum. HATE. HATE. HATE.

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quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

Khead - Do you feel the same way about the Olympics?

I HATE the fact I had to sign up for this forum. HATE. HATE. HATE.

Yes. Also the Olympics (and stadium building) doesn't really create that many jobs, as they don't just hire a bunch of people off of the unemployment lines to go work on them, it's already the employed people that get the jobs.

I only mentioned employment because the announcement made a big deal about creating jobs or something. My main rant was that the stadium is only going to be used by Torontonians going to watch the CFL and Lynx because no national soccer teams are going to wan't to play there. I just added the employment part as an extra ran.

By the way, not defending the Olympic spending, but I'm sure a bunch of you rich Ontarians will be out here enjoying the winter olympics. I know I won't be.

"As nothing in this life that I've been trying

could equal or surpass the art of dying"-George Harrison

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ACC was mostly private money..

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Cynics.

What kind of starving man turns down a sandwhich because he'd rather it were on rye bread?

Elections are coming. There'll be money. Don't know how much. But there'll be money. Federal and provincial. Nothing like this gets built without the lions share being taxpayer's money. Nothing. Someone name one bloody thing.

Plastic dosen't have to be forever. Can be turfed over on an as need basis, like say for a years worth of WCQ. Or even better, a certain FIFA tourny. These things can be fine tuned. If it's found internationals can't be had because of the FieldTurff, the surface well HAVE to be adapted.

Build it.

"Minority of one"

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First off, if this thing is going to be built, the CSA needs to kick in more than the $600,000. The comments made by Sharpe are ridiculous. The Waterloo minor soccer club here pays in excess of $100,000 each year to help finance RIM park (that would service more than a $1,000,000 mortgage). That is over User Fees.. Where are corporate contributers? To assume that government will pick up what is essentially the full tab is naive at best. But to ask for without even attempting to develop other sources of funding. Take it from someone who has been involved in government funding proposals, this thing is dead without significant changes in the financing proposal.

All that is separate from what I think of the stadium being proposed.

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

The stadium will probably end up being built. $62 mil from both govnernments is small compared to the crap that they spend on other projects that no one cares about. How much tax payer money is being used to build that national tennis centre at York U? That seems like a bigger waste of money to me (seeing as less people play tennis in Canada, and the stadium would only be used for a major competion 7 days a year).

Also, I wish the plan was to have natural grass, but, lets get the project started first, and then worry about the surface.

-------------------------

"As soon as you're born you start dying,

So you might as well have a good time."

Sheep Go To Heaven - Cake

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First off, if this thing is going to be built, the CSA needs to kick in more than the $600,000. The comments made by Sharpe are ridiculous. The Waterloo minor soccer club here pays in excess of $100,000 each year to help finance RIM park (that would service more than a $1,000,000 mortgage). That is over User Fees.. Where are corporate contributers? To assume that government will pick up what is essentially the full tab is naive at best. But to ask for without even attempting to develop other sources of funding. Take it from someone who has been involved in government funding proposals, this thing is dead without significant changes in the financing proposal.

All that is separate from what I think of the stadium being proposed.

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

The stadium will probably end up being built. $62 mil from both govnernments is small compared to the crap that they spend on other projects that no one cares about. How much tax payer money is being used to build that national tennis centre at York U? That seems like a bigger waste of money to me (seeing as less people play tennis in Canada, and the stadium would only be used for a major competion 7 days a year).

Also, I wish the plan was to have natural grass, but, lets get the project started first, and then worry about the surface.

-------------------------

"As soon as you're born you start dying,

So you might as well have a good time."

Sheep Go To Heaven - Cake

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ACC, the excpetion that still proves the rule. And not exactly apples and apples. I don't think there isn't anyone who wouldn't be curious to have a nice closer look at how goverment moneys/subsidies were and still are involved in constuction of that barn.

Think you nailed it though regarding the CSAs contribution. Dought anyone's taking it serious. There'll be lots of give and take yet and it'll be the average joe fee payer who's going to be surcharged by the CSA to make up their portion. Whether it's $5 a head nationwide for the next 5 years, or $10 per player in Ontario who knows? And again Sharpe called it right, those sort of surcharges are going to cause a nasty, bitter, fight. There's plenty of people inside Ontario who won't want to pay it, and no one outside of Ontario.

P.S. Just a little muse on arenas in major citys, which are of course far, far more financialy viable than any stadium anywhere. Remember back in the mid '80s when the latest addition of MSG was build. Totaly paid for with plenty of cash, and I mean plenty of cash, to spare after taxes and all just by selling the property the older MSG stood on. Man, it must be nice.

"Minority of one"

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