leekoo Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 holger is a world cup coach, he was hired to win the World Cup ... yes, this IS his mission ... some people say he should have been fired after the 2002 debacle ... does he deserve another go, does someone with a winning percentage of 17% and one goal for in six games deserve another shot... just posing the question ... here is his world cup 2002 qualifying record ...study the numbers ... OVERALL played = 6 wins = 1 ties = 2 losses = 3 goals for = 1 goals against = 8 goals plus/minus = -7 points = 5 points possible = 18 win % = 17 tie % = 33 loss % = 50 AT HOME played = 3 wins = 1 ties = 1 losses = 1 goals for = 1 goals against = 2 goals plus/minus = -1 points = 4 points possible = 9 win % = 33 tie % = 33 loss % = 33 ON THE ROAD played = 3 wins = 0 ties = 1 losses = 2 goals for = 0 goals against = 6 goals plus/minus = -6 points = 1 points possible = 9 win % = 0 tie % = 33 loss % = 67 RESULTS AT HOME trinidad 2 canada 0 canada 1 panama 0 canada 0 mexico 0 RESULTS ON THE ROAD panama 0 canada 0 mexico 2 canada 0 trindad 4 canada 0 Source: CONCACAF FOOTBALL FEDERATION No Matter Where You Go, There You Are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 You should include the home and home series (or is that home and away...I'm sure we all know the meaning of both) with Cuba. Another win, another goal. And we beat Cuba!!! Actually, we beat Cuba twice in one weekend in Edmonton during WCQ 98 when they gave up their right to host us. (I wonder if the CSA is considering this in the upcoming WCQ so as not to break our no games in Canada streak.) Blair We want a game...in Canada! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by leekoo does he deserve another go, does someone with a winning percentage of 17% and one goal for in six games deserve another shot... just posing the question ... Your numbers speak for themselves. There is an increasing number of fans who feel that enough is enough but as good fans we tend to be supportive when there is success and criticize when there is not. Sadly enough I feel that the players themselves are getting a bit annoyed with the lack of success, lack of consistency and questionable program. There is another statistic number I would like to mention and that is 5 years now where Mr. Osieck has made little or no progress with the team and whatever his diabolic program is. Reasons abound, but if we compare the men to the women one has to wonder. Are we as a country doomed for ever in the men's side, I hope not. Surely Mr. Pellerud will not want to coach the men as well, but maybe the CSA can commission him to find the type of coach we need for the men's program. At least he seems to know what he is doing and is probably cognizant of what the Canadian scene really needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I disagree. It is far easier to get success in womens soccer than men. After all their are only 6 truely competitive teams in womens soccer. For those in the know the present crop of players inherited by Pellerud were well developed before he got here. What the CSA did was invest more money into the program, giving those players valuable experience at international levels. However the fact remains everyone in the womens game knew about the crop of players onthe rise, Sinclaire, Chapman, Moscato etc. For the men side the quality is not the same, plus the mens program due to the nature of Clubs play far less games together. Just as an example, Sinclaire is only 20 and yet she has almost played 30 International games. Compare apples with apples. A second point to consider is the style of play I may argue that Pellerud style will not gain success in mens soccer at an International level and may even further alienate players from the men's program. quote:Originally posted by The Ref Your numbers speak for themselves. There is an increasing number of fans who feel that enough is enough but as good fans we tend to be supportive when there is success and criticize when there is not. Sadly enough I feel that the players themselves are getting a bit annoyed with the lack of success, lack of consistency and questionable program. There is another statistic number I would like to mention and that is 5 years now where Mr. Osieck has made little or no progress with the team and whatever his diabolic program is. Reasons abound, but if we compare the men to the women one has to wonder. Are we as a country doomed for ever in the men's side, I hope not. Surely Mr. Pellerud will not want to coach the men as well, but maybe the CSA can commission him to find the type of coach we need for the men's program. At least he seems to know what he is doing and is probably cognizant of what the Canadian scene really needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 You can't compare the development of women's soccer with men's. First of all, Canada is one of the best places on earth as far as the status and role of women is concerned. Canadian females have a lot more sporting opportunities availible to them than most females from other countries. This is why the US and Canada are amoung the elite of women's soccer. As someone earlier mentioned, only a few countries take it seriously. As far as the coach in concerned, I'll throw my $0.02 in. I think Holger should go. Canada seems to be stagnating despite the improvement of the Canadian player. No country has ever won the world cup using a foreign coach. Some countries have had short term success with foreign coaches, but I think it takes a domestic coach to truly understand his country's players. My suggestion would be Frank Yallop. He's kept San Jose in the top half of the table despite being decimated by injuries and national team call ups. He's also discovered who many think is the US left back of the future. Not to mention he has around 60 caps for Canada and has a track record of giving North American based Cannucks a chance. See the success of Onstad and DeRosario. "Try not, do. Do or do not. There is no try" - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Well, when you consider who has won a World Cup and the position of those Countries in the World of Soccer, I would be cautious with the use of the fact that you need a domestic coach to win a World Cup. There is a lot of nationalism in soccer style even though styles are converging. But Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Uruguay (Early), and England (1960s) as world cup champions, doesn't really tell me that domestic coaches are necessary. All but Uruguay have enormous pools of talent, and Uruguay will not likely be a World Cup Champion again (not because of lack of skill but the state of the game). Brazilians are always criticizing their coaches and win in spite of them. Germany has essentially mass produces players. England has been unsuccessful with a domestic coach after 1966 and has now turned to a foreign coach in desperation. Italy, Argentina, and France have won with talent and have not won with talent under a domestic coach. I would also argue that the success of the USA in soccer has much more to do with their development system and the massive number of players being developed than the current National team coach. That is not a knock on Arena but merely, stating a fact that depth in talent is the first primary ingredient to winning any tournament. As for putting national programs on the global map Milotunovic (sp?)(in the USA) and Hiddink (with Korea) did as much as any domestic National team coach. Don't get me wrong. I would like to see a Canadian coach. But networks matter when it comes to getting friendlies and placing players on professional teams (no coincidence that PSV Eindhoven has a Korean player on its roster). Once our national style and reputation is set as a quality soccer nation, then the issues finding exhibition matches and scouts to consider Canadian players are no longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje I would also argue that the success of the USA in soccer has much more to do with their development system and the massive number of players being developed than the current National team coach. That is not a knock on Arena but merely, stating a fact that depth in talent is the first primary ingredient to winning any tournament. As for putting national programs on the global map Milotunovic (sp?)(in the USA) and Hiddink (with Korea) did as much as any domestic National team coach. AGREED ... so isn't holger our national technical director... what is his program, what has he accomplished development-wise... the numbers that really sung for me regarding the WCQ 2002 were 1 goal for in two games against panama, a team that has never been ranked above 109 from january 2000 to june 2003, a team that was ranked 138 in january 2000 ...canada was ranked 80 in january 2000 ... No Matter Where You Go, There You Are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 I am not going to get into a debate about Holger's performance as a technical director. But I will say that the Canadian youth system is developing much better players now than 20 years ago.. and 10 years ago too.. I don't know how much Holger is responsible for.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 IMHO what is usually atributable to Holger in the development of the youth national system is really not due to his initiative. He was politically pressured to require youth players to participate in CSA sanctioned programs as condition to progress to national youth teams only to curtail the proliferation of private soccer academies and youth leagues with american connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Well I know for a fact that much of the system was put in place before Holger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by The Ref IMHO what is usually atributable to Holger in the development of the youth national system is really not due to his initiative. He was politically pressured to require youth players to participate in CSA sanctioned programs as condition to progress to national youth teams only to curtail the proliferation of private soccer academies and youth leagues with american connections. It seems to me that the "Holger's Gotta Go" posse seem to think he sits at home, cooks dinner for Fenwick and Dasovic, collects his paycheque, and then they gather 'round the computer and all have a good laugh at your expense when they read the Voyageurs board. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ You are the witness of change And to counteract We gotta take the power back Rage Against The Machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack Mimglow, I know you like to poke fun at the anti-Holger posters on this board. You know what's going to suck the most? Not qualifying for WC 2006, and then coming to this board to tell all the Holger supporters that I told you so. To all the Holger supporters I would honestly like to know what you see in the National Team's play since the 2000 GC that suggests Holger should stay? What, a good performance every 3 games? Also, I'm sick and tired of hearing this "We were missing 5 good players" excuse. That's bullsh*t. What team is ever at full strength? If we can't perform with a few players missing, what does that say about the future of out NT? We had the talent at this GC to make the 2nd stage at least, but we didn't, this should be a wake up call. M-A, humor is just my way of showing my displeasure at what in my opinion is false blame. If not humor, it would be Krammerhead style , and that is not my personality. I believe in Holger. I believe he can qualify us for the World Cup. I thought we totally dominated Cuba, and spurned our best opportunities, as well as being stopped by a hot keeper. Losing to Cuba was unfortunate, but I don't think the bulk of the blame falls to Holger, although I will admit it was a mistake to start Dasovic and Nash. WCQ in our confederation is a tricky proposition, and last time was Holger's first go at it. Travelling to Central American countries is like nothing else that could have prepared him, but now he know what to expect. Why throw another rookie coach in there? Holger has been working like a dog setting up youth development in this country. It's starting to pay dividends, but the true rewards of his initiatives will be seen only the next decade. He is a better Technical director than a coach, this I agree with. But he is not a stinker like many of you claim. If players have a problem with his style, that is THEIR problem. They should grow up and be professionals. The other issue is I have a problem with fans asking for a coache's head for petulant reasons. Like I've said previously, I think too many people immediately look for someone to pay the price when something doesn't go the way they want. I feel that so many coaches get fired for not "winning the championship", in all sports, when in fact they are excellent coaches. I trust Holger knows what he is doing out there that he has a plan, and unless the WCQ is a total disaster, I'll stand by him and keep poking fun at you guys. If I can sum things up in one sentence, I'd say: "I don't believe in Scapegoats". And that's what I think you guys are trying to make out of Holger. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ You are the witness of change And to counteract We gotta take the power back Rage Against The Machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Mimglow M-A, humor is just my way of showing my displeasure at what in my opinion is false blame. If not humor, it would be Krammerhead style , and that is not my personality. I believe in Holger. I believe he can qualify us for the World Cup. I thought we totally dominated Cuba, and spurned our best opportunities, as well as being stopped by a hot keeper. Losing to Cuba was unfortunate, but I don't think the bulk of the blame falls to Holger, although I will admit it was a mistake to start Dasovic and Nash. WCQ in our confederation is a tricky proposition, and last time was Holger's first go at it. Travelling to Central American countries is like nothing else that could have prepared him, but now he know what to expect. Why throw another rookie coach in there? Holger has been working like a dog setting up youth development in this country. It's starting to pay dividends, but the true rewards of his initiatives will be seen only the next decade. He is a better Technical director than a coach, this I agree with. But he is not a stinker like many of you claim. If players have a problem with his style, that is THEIR problem. They should grow up and be professionals. The other issue is I have a problem with fans asking for a coache's head for petulant reasons. Like I've said previously, I think too many people immediately look for someone to pay the price when something doesn't go the way they want. I feel that so many coaches get fired for not "winning the championship", in all sports, when in fact they are excellent coaches. I trust Holger knows what he is doing out there that he has a plan, and unless the WCQ is a total disaster, I'll stand by him and keep poking fun at you guys. If I can sum things up in one sentence, I'd say: "I don't believe in Scapegoats". And that's what I think you guys are trying to make out of Holger. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ You are the witness of change And to counteract We gotta take the power back Rage Against The Machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Gordon M-A, humor is just my way of showing my displeasure at what in my opinion is false blame. If not humor, it would be Krammerhead style , and that is not my personality. I believe in Holger. I believe he can qualify us for the World Cup. I thought we totally dominated Cuba, and spurned our best opportunities, as well as being stopped by a hot keeper. Losing to Cuba was unfortunate, but I don't think the bulk of the blame falls to Holger, although I will admit it was a mistake to start Dasovic and Nash. WCQ in our confederation is a tricky proposition, and last time was Holger's first go at it. Travelling to Central American countries is like nothing else that could have prepared him, but now he know what to expect. Why throw another rookie coach in there? Holger has been working like a dog setting up youth development in this country. It's starting to pay dividends, but the true rewards of his initiatives will be seen only the next decade. He is a better Technical director than a coach, this I agree with. But he is not a stinker like many of you claim. If players have a problem with his style, that is THEIR problem. They should grow up and be professionals. The other issue is I have a problem with fans asking for a coache's head for petulant reasons. Like I've said previously, I think too many people immediately look for someone to pay the price when something doesn't go the way they want. I feel that so many coaches get fired for not "winning the championship", in all sports, when in fact they are excellent coaches. I trust Holger knows what he is doing out there that he has a plan, and unless the WCQ is a total disaster, I'll stand by him and keep poking fun at you guys. If I can sum things up in one sentence, I'd say: "I don't believe in Scapegoats". And that's what I think you guys are trying to make out of Holger. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ You are the witness of change And to counteract We gotta take the power back Rage Against The Machine I remember Harry Neale saying of Jacques Demers "The problem with Jacques is that he has a five year contract and a three year act." The reality is that it IS the coach's problem and not the players. This is Canada, you can't go out and get 25 new players. If they won't perform then it is the coach's problem and the solution, unfortunately, is to axe the coach if he can not come to grips with it. I don't know that firing Holger is the solution, but I do have a number of problems with Holger's performance as coach recently (see teh Canadian Soccer wish list, last point, for more detail). Clearly, Holger has to adjust. And this is not simply a matter of one bad game against Cuba. There are a host of problems that are emerging faster than they are being solved. The opinions expressed above are just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Again, there is an overemphasis on the role of the coach.. you see with all teams sports.. Especially at the top level.. I think to be Brazil's head coach, you need to have a knowledge of the Brazilian style of game and the players at your disposal, but a Phd is psychology probably would equally as valuable as a playing career. These guys know what needs to be done... out there. the meshing of egos is big challenge with these nations... Would say the same for Germany.. Big names as coaches of National teams are there because of the respect the name brings amongst the players, not their technical knowledge of the game. That respect simply allows them to get on with the job without having to earn respect first. I don't believe changing the coach will change much in the Canadian fortunes.. It might create a short blip.. But to think a domestic Canadian coach will make it easier for de Guzman Nsaliwa or Brennan to leave their club teams is naive. In the end, you have the same problem. And every nation has had clashes between players and national team coaches (Egos do that). My point earlier up the thread is that the base in Canada needs to be built for soccer and is being built... The sport has come a long way in this country. The quality of play is far higher here now than 20 years ago. I don't consider myself a Holger supporter nor a Holger basher. The fundamentals and player development just happen much further down the system. Depth is growing.. I will only say that Hiddink's head was demanded by the Korean press and fans alike prior to WC 2002.. He finished that tournament as almost god-like among Korean fans. Gold Cup performance and National team performance in friendlies is not what firing a coach should be based upon. My view is let's see how the team does in WCQ 2006. If a tradeoff is to be made for player availability, I would want all my players for WCQ instead of the Gold Cup. If the same problems exist, then is the time to re-evaluate the coach based on his performance and based on who else is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Anyone who pulls statistics from only 6 games which were 3 years ago obviously isn't qualified to mount said statistics. Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Georgio Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:It seems to me that the "Holger's Gotta Go" posse seem to think he sits at home, cooks dinner for Fenwick and Dasovic, collects his paycheque, and then they gather 'round the computer and all have a good laugh at your expense when they read the Voyageurs board. Mimglow, Ottawa What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter how much effort someone puts into something if they don't get positive results when it matters. We are talking about the the things that matter for a NATIONAL TEAM COACH. Let him focus on player development if that is where he'd have success. Dasovic and Fenwick when he has other options?? and the last time in a game where an 18 year old track athlete would be tired. Most of the people that attended the Cuba game at Gillette stadium could see how tired the players were and all said that subs were way, way overdue. That is just a sign of things to come. He never learns from his mistakes. We already had a Germany fiasco . And then there is the dealings with the players {Aguiar, Pesch, Jazic is pissed off agian (no communication), Jordan, Budalic, Bircham, etc}. We play a defensive archaic style. Now is the perfect time for change. The team are down, show no enthusaism for Canadian soccer as Devos ,the team captain, indicates so any short term positive results would improve the entire scene especially if we qualify. That could change the entire Nations perspective of soccer. It's not like Holger has worked so hard to get the players on the National team to a certain level and now that they are at that level a new coach coming in would reap the rewards of his previous work. They'd have to fix all the crap that Holger would have left behind. The team is made up of players that made enormous leaps in there development in Europe, not under Holger's guidance. The only thing we can attribute to Holger as far as the MNT IS CONCERNED is tactics/player selection (which have proven faulty), preparation for games/tournaments (which has proven faulty), and results when it matters (not with coin tosses). But we'd have to be defeatests to want to see Canada qualify. I do on the other hand concede that we probably will not see a change until after Qualifying and sadly I am sure it will have been too late. Georgio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leekoo Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Anyone who pulls statistics from only 6 games which were 3 years ago obviously isn't qualified to mount said statistics. the numbers always speak for themselves ... if you can only score one goal in two games against a team some 40 ranking points behind you there is something no good going on ... canada was ranked 80 in jan 2000 and ranked 78 in june 2003 ... that's NOT progress... costa rica was ranked 64 in jan 2000 and ranked 18 in june 2003 ... now that's progress... No Matter Where You Go, There You Are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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